From: A.
Message: 59784
Date: 2008-08-07
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "A." <xthanex@...> wrote:
>
> Working with Brian's etymology, I have a few more questions:
>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@> wrote:
> >
> > What you actually have are OSax <Saxno:te> in a context
> > that apparently makes it a dative singular, so the
> > nominative is <Saxno:t>, and OE <Seaxne:at>. Those are
> > consistent with a PGmc a-stem *sahsa-nautaz.
> >
> > it'll be kin to ON <nautr> 'a mate, a
> > fellow; the giver of a gift; the gift itself' and OE
> > <(ge)ne:at> 'companion, follower, tenant', not English
> > <need>; the sense would presumably be something like
> > 'sword-mate, sword-companion'.
> >
> > Brian
>
> First of all, I assume Brian is correct (because I'm incompetent
with
> linguistics, trust everyone smarter than myself, and no one has
> challenged the etymology) ... about the Proto-Gmc stem being
> something akin to *nautaz-
>
> In Watkins AHDIER, Middle Dutch ghenot `fellow' ,and OHG
> ginoz `companion' both stem from the Proto-Gmc compound *ga-
> nautaz `he with whom one shares possessions, companion'.
>
> However most of these terms require the initial Gmc element of *ga-
> (from the PIE *kom-). Watkins then states the various Teutonic
> entries all originate from the Gmc *Nautam `thing of value,
> possession'.
>
>
> The "Old Frisian etymological database" (the evidence of R1)
> [Boutkan] states:
> In Germanic we also find the following derivations of the root
*neut-
> : P-Gmc. *neut-a-: Goth. niutan 'attain, enjoy, obtain, catch', ON
> njo´ta, OE notan, OS niotan, OHG niozan, MHG niezen, (ge-niezen),
> MLG ge-nten, nten, MDu. genieten, geneeten, 'enjoy', also OFris.
> niata P-Gmc. *neut-a- (adj.): OHG in giniuz 'without disadvantage'
P-
> Gmc. *neut-a- (m): ON njótr 'user' P-Gmc. *neut-i- (adj.): ON
> ny´tr 'useful, excellent' P-Gmc. *naut-a- (n): see 2)nat P-Gmc.
*naut-
> ja- (n): ON neyti 'use, profit' P-Gmc. *naut-eja-: ON neyta 'to
use',
> also OFris. nta P-Gmc. *naut-n¡- (f): ON nautn 'use' P-Gmc. *naut-
> isl¡- (f): ON neyzla 'use' P-Gmc. *nut-a- (n): ON not 'use' P-Gmc.
> *nut-i- (m): OHG nuz 'use' P-Gmc. *nut-i- (adj.): see 2)nette P-
Gmc.
> *nut-¡- (f): OE notu 'use', also OFris. note 'profit'. P-Gmc. *nut-
j¡-
> (f): ON nyt, OE nytt, 'use' P-Gmc. *nut-on- (m): Goth.
nuta 'fisher,
> catcher'. P-Gmc. *nut-jon- (m): ON erfe-nyte 'heir'. The original
> meaning of the root *neut- is 'to use'. The meanings 'useful'
> and 'useful animals' have been directly derived from the original
> meaning. A 'companion' was probably a 'fellow user'.
>
>
> The PIE root etymology database (by S.L.Nikolaev and S.A.Starostin)
> gives an extensive entry for PIE *neud- , which when followed to
the
> Gmc entry gives:
> Proto-Germanic: *niutan-, *nutja-, *nutō, *nauta-, *niutia-,
*nuta-n,
> *niutian-, *nutjōn-
> Meaning: enjoy, utilize
> Gothic: niutan st. `attain, enjoy', ga-niutan `obtain'; *nuta m.
(n)
> `catcher, fisherman'; *un-nut-s adj. `foolish, useless'
> Old English: nēotan `nehmen, gebrauchen, geniessen'; nytt
`wozu
> nütze'; nyttian `brauchen, geniessen'; nytt f. `Nutzen'; notu f.
> `Ertrag', nēat n. `Stück Rindvieh, Tier'; genēat `Genosse'
> Old Saxon: niotan `nehmen, gebrauchen, geniessen'; nutti `wozu
> nütze'; notil n. `Kleinvieh'; ginōt `Genosse'; nutti; gi-
nōt
>
>
>
> So my question is; why is Saxnot always interpreted as `Sword-
> companion' or `Saxon-companion', if there is no *ga- element
present?
> Could it not simply be Sax-not = `Sword-possession', `Sword-of
> value' from Sax-*Nautam , or from one of the other Proto-Gmc
> elements above (assuming said Proto-Gmc term could produce both OE
> Sax-ne:at and Old Saxon Sax-no:te)???
>
>
> I'd really appreciate any input or guidance you guys could give!
>
> -Aydan
>