Re: Sk. Sarpis- and Oss. Carv

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "david_russell_watson" <liberty@...>
wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@> wrote:
> >
> > For more information consult Richard Strand's Chitrali site.
>
> The method used to index Nuristani words on that site is
> extremely annoying,

Most of it is pointless. Many things on the site, including
etymology, seem to have been done for no understandable reason.

> and beside that I've yet to find on
> any of the pages that I've looked at so far a discussion,
> or even mention, of the irregular sound correspondence.
>
> > The important changes for this correspondence are s. > s^ in
> > Iranian
>
> What does 's.' represent, surely not a retroflex?

Yes, retroflex. Though for some reason the belief is that retro. in
Indo came from pal. in the proto, the opp. occurred. For example, r
was retro. r. in Indo-Iranian, the reason why r.s > rs. and it
remained retro. in some branches, causes retro. of kY > c^ > s^ > s
(Khow srùng, Ach s.íng, Kam s.íN 'horn').

> There
> are no retroflex sounds in Proto-Iranian or any preceding
> stages. Retroflexes entered Iranian only later and only
> in those dialects under the influence of Indian languages
> with those sounds.

No, the order must be the reverse (s. > s^ not s^ > s.) because of
Khow r.st > r.s.t. > r.s^t. > s^t. and similar changes.

> > The existence of t.s^ not c^ is confirmed by:
> >
> > t.s^aLp
> > r.s^aLp
> > pr.aLs^
> >
> > Kam pr^âšól 'unclarified part of melted butter'
>
> So then it's this pr^âš'ol you believe a reflex of *selp-?

It's one of them.

> Do you suppose there to be any others on Strand's site or
> can I stop looking?

I gave every one I knew of, not just one.

>
> The site itself breaks the word up as pr^a-âša-ol, none of
> the components of which seems readily derivable from *selp-
> or *sarp-.

Why would you believe this? It is completely meaningless. Many of
the origins given there are impossible, some ridiculous or
confounding. Many are given from Indic based only on an unwavering
belief in Morgenstierne's incorrect theories.

> It would certainly be nice to know what pr^a, âša, and ol
> mean in Kamviri,

Two do have meanings, but there's no evidence they're part of THIS
word; it's like saying butter < but+to+er. I think he's indicating
'forward (etc.) + order + ?' (ol doesn't seem to exist elsewhere, and
it's not the only origin with such a theoretical root as part of it),
but some have multiple meanings so I wouldn't presume.

Since Strand doesn't seem to ever consider metathesis as an
explanation, many origins given are completely ridiculous.

> but, since it's impossible to look them
> up alphabetically anywhere on Strand's site, I haven't yet
> any idea. ša is cited a few times on some of the pages
> as an element of other words, but is left itself undefined.

'order, put in order, fashion together, adorn' seems the basic
meaning, if he's right

> Neither was I able to find another Kamviri lexicon online.
> Would you happen to know of one, Sean, or to know yourself
> what pr^a, âša, and ol mean?
>
> As it stands pr^âš'ol doesn't seem to have anything to do
> with *selp-.

Many words in Chitral have metathesis; if you want to look for an
explanation that doesn't involve it, I don't think it's possible.