Re: Sin once more

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "indravayu" <sonno3@...> wrote:

>
> > Now does the fact that they slapped on a Biblical prehistory to
> > the material they had invalidate that material? I don't get the
> > argument.
>
> I can see that.
>
>
> > > > > One of the nodal characters in this legend is Míl of Spain,
> > > > > a transparent literary invention (= Miles Hispaniae,
> > > > > `Soldier of Spain').
> > > >
> > > > Let's call that that 'an attempt at an etymology' instead.
> > >
> > > Still, it is a literary invention and not genuine history.
> >
> > No, an attempt is an attempt and not the final truth. Anything
> > based on that is attempt too.
>
> What the f**k are you even arguing?

Am I being unclear?

> Do you even know?

I believe I do.

> Because you are just making a lot of noise at this point.

You know, doctors can do a lot about tinnitus these days.
Don't hesitate to seek help.

> > > > > It was believed that the Irish discovered Ireland from
> > > > > Brigantia in Spain. As Rolf Baumgarten has recently shown,
> > > > > the source of this legend is a reading of Orosius (I ii 71
> > > > > and 80) in the light of Isidore (Etymologiae XIV vi 6)."
> >
> > Yes, that's what the article says.
>
> No sh*t! You know that's a quote from the article, right? See that
> little quotation mark at the end there?
> You can see more clearly that it's a quote in my original message
> (where I say "Let me quote Donnchadh Ó Corráin"):
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/59672

Oops, you're right.

> > > Names found in the LGE account, such as Scene and Bregon are
> > > quite clearly drawn from written sources (Orosius' Scena and
> > > Brigantia) and are were not passed down orally from ancient
> > > times (otherwise, they would have been subject to Irish sound
> > > laws – Brigantia, for instance, would have become Brigte). In
> > > the case of Scena, this is a corrupt name in Orosius' text – he
> > > (or his copyists) should have written Sena (now the river
> > > Shannon). The medieval Irishmen who borrowed this name from
> > > Orosius had no idea that he was referring to the Shannon, thus
> > > they invented a new character, Scene. The LGE's Eber is
> > > suspiciously similar to Latin (H)iberia, as well – Isidore
> > > suggested that the name Hibernia was derived from Hiberia.
> >
> > Those eponymous founder heroes are always discounted, and for good
> > reason. That's no reason to discard the rest of the material.
>
> Even though it is evident that this section of the LGE is drawn
> from non-Irish sources?

Those sections that can proved to be inventions should be discarded
too - pretty obvious.

> > > See Oliver Szerwiniack's article "D'Orose au Lebor Gabála
> > > Érenn: les gloses du manuscrit Reg. Lat. 1650" [In Études
> > > Celtiques 31 (1995) pp. 205-217] fort a discussion of some
> > > early medieval, HIberno-Latin glosses on Orosius which display
> > > for us signs of the process of transmission from his and
> > > Isidore's work (which were rather popular among the medieval
> > > Irish) to what ultimately became the LGE.
> >
> > But the fact the later redactors have compared sources and
> > adjusted them doesn't prove the sources are false. Suppose one
> > found Napoleon's family name given as 'Buonaparte' instead of
> > 'Bonaparte' in a contemporary French journal. Would we conclude
> > that this showed it was all copied from the 'Journal du Corse'
> > and that Napoleon never existed?
>
> Wow, this is really flying over your head, isn't it? LOL!
>
>
> > Also genetics show there *is* a connection.
> > Look at the maps I uploaded to the file section from
> > Oppenheimer's The Origins of the British, those that show the
> > marker R1b (called 'Ruisko' by Oppenheimer). How do you explain
> > that?
>
> OMFG. I AM NOT DENYING THAT THERE ARE GENETIC LINKS BETWEEN THE
> IRISH AND SPANISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> My entire argument is that you can't use a MEDIEVAL pseudo-history
> (Lebor Gabala Erenn), as "proof" of some sort of irish folk memory
> of a STONE AGE migration from Spain to Ireland, because the
> relevant section of the LGE IS NOT ACTUALLY DRAWN FROM GENUINE
> IRISH TRADITION!! What the f**k are you not understanding here??

As I mentioned before, I think Oppenheimer's practice of assuming a
variant went immediately to its future abode as soon as it was
created, instead of building up in a clan before emigrating
exaggerates the age of those migrations. So in this case the
migrations were not necessarily Stone Age.

So, let me see if I understand your scenario correctly:

1) The Irish migrate from Spain to Ireland
2) The Irish forget they migrated from Spain to Ireland.
3) The Irish invent a fraudulent claim that they migrated from Spain
to Ireland.


Torsten