--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <BMScott@...> wrote:
>
> At 11:13:00 AM on Saturday, June 21, 2008, tgpedersen wrote:
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott"
> > <BMScott@> wrote:
>
> >> At 6:33:17 PM on Friday, June 20, 2008, tgpedersen wrote:
>
> >>> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott"
> >>> <BMScott@> wrote:
>
> >>>> At 3:09:25 PM on Thursday, June 19, 2008, tgpedersen wrote:
>
> >>>>> 1)
> >>>>> What's the deal with B- for V- in Slavic (and neighbors')
> >>>>> names for
> >>>>> http://tinyurl.com/4ogsjh
>
> >>>> [...]
>
> >>>>> Vienna:
> >>>>> Bec^ (Bosnian,Croatian, Serbian)
> >>>>> Bech (Romani)
> >>>>> Bécs (Hungarian)
>
> >>>> These, unlike Cz. <Víden^>, clearly aren't the same
> >>>> name as <Wien>, so this isn't a case of <B-> for <V->.
> >>>> (<Wien>, <Wenia> 881, and <Víden^> appreantly go back
> >>>> to a Celt. <Vedunia>.)
>
> >>> Vindobona, actually, another *Wenet- name.
>
> >> One occasionally reads that,
>
> > Actually, one reads it all the time.
>
> >> but I agree with Ernst Schwarz that the evidence points
> >> to <Vedunia> (his *We:dunia), not <Vindobona>.
>
> > I'm not surprised.
> > So on the list, it should be Celtic *Vedunia, then?
>
> Don't know for sure; quite possibly.
>
> > What is the evidence Ernst Schwarz refers to?
>
> It's something of an aside in a larger discussion, so he
> doesn't say much; he does, however, specifically point to
> the Cz. form. If I remember correctly there's also a
> reference to something by R. Much.
>
> >> It makes no difference to my point, however:
> >> <Bec^> etc. is still clearly a different name.
>
> > Of course it does.
> > If it's Vindo-bona, it might be related to, say *Went-sk-
> > > *Bec^-. If it's Ve:dunia, it most likely isn't.
>
> It most likely isn't, full stop.
If it's from *Went-sk-, it's a special and local development.
That much is true.
>
> >>> Wikipedia gives no source for the alleged 'Celtic' name.
>
> >> Perhaps you should look a bit further, then.
>
> > Why are you on Cybalist at all?
> > Other people would provide an answer if they knew one.
>
> My point is that it's inappropriate to imply that the Celtic
> derivation is complete nonsense or a figment of someone's
> imagination just because Wikipedia, of all things, doesn't
> give a source for it.
I noted that Wikipedia didn't give a source for it, that's all.
What I was not implying, but wondering was whether the form marked as
Celtic was reconstructed, although not marked as such, or actually
documented (eg. by an inscription). I don't see what's inappropriate
in that.
> Frankly, I doubt that the lack would have bothered you very much
> had this derivation suited you better than the <Vindobona> one.
I think that if Wikipedia had given another unasterisked form as
'Celtic' that suited my derivation better I might have asked the same
question.
> > If you get nothing but snotty answers, you get tired of asking.
>
> Of all the Cybalist regulars, you are in the worst position
> to complain about snotty responses.
I don't think I've told people to go look for themselves if I actually
had the information they asked for.
> [...]
>
> >>>>> Bilachium (Latin)
>
> >>>> Here I suspect that it's the other way around, and that
> >>>> German has <V-> for <B->.
>
> >>> Because?
>
> >> Because <Bilachium> (or <Bilachinium> -- there seems to be
> >> some question) is apparently Roman, though perhaps
> >> designated a slightly different place.
>
> > I was speculating that the b-/v- alternation had to do
> > with a substrate in the area. Do you have an idea what
> > this German v- for b- thing is, or is it just a one-off?
>
> Haven't looked into it seriously enough to have an opinion.
True to style.
> <Worms> ~ <Borbetomagos> is similar, but there are certainly
> instances of the expected /b-/ > /p-/. If I had to guess,
> it's a not unreasonable irregular outcome.
The question is whether it occurred in areas which could be suspected
of having spoken a Venetic language. This what I get from Orbis Latinus
http://www.pribramska.cz/knih/ruzne/Graesse/orblatv.html
http://www.pribramska.cz/knih/ruzne/Graesse/orblatb.html
http://www.pribramska.cz/knih/ruzne/Graesse/orblatw.html
'Vapincum, -cesium, Vappincum, Bapinco, Vapingo, Vappincenslum od.
Guapincensium civitas,
Gap, Stadt, Frankr. (Hautes-Alpes)
Varadinum (War. od. Bar.), Magno-Varad.,
Großwardein [Oradea], Stadt, Ungarn (Bihar)
Vardarius, Bardarius,
Vardar, Fluß, (agäisches Meer), Türkei (Mazedonien)
Varesium, Baretium,
Varese, Stadt, Ital. (Como)
Vasatica, Vesatica, Vasatum, Basatum civitas, Vasatis,
Bazas, Stadt, Frankr. (Gironde)
Vedasus,
Bidassoa, Fluß, (Mrb. v. Viscaya), a. d. Grenze v. Spanien u. Frankr
Verodunum, Veredunum, Veridunum, Virodunum, Virdunum, Viridunum,
Wirdunum, Viridonium, Viritonium, Viridinnum, Clarorum urbs (Ver,
Bardunensis),
Verdun, Stadt, Frankr. (Meuse)
Verona, Bernum, Berma, Berna, Bernna, Berona, Beruna, Verena, Arctopolis,
Bern, Stadt, Schweiz
Verona,
Beraun, Stadt, Böhmen (Horowitz)
Vesalia, Wesalia, Besalia, Ves. inferior (Wesaliensis),
Wesel, Stadt, Preußen (Rheinprov.)
Vesalia, Ves. superior, Wesalia, Wesela, Wessila, Wyesela, Vosalia,
Vosava, Bosagnia, Ficella (Wasaliacensis),
Oberwesel, Stadt, Preußen (Rheinprov.)
Vesontio, Vesuntio, Visontio, Bizantia, Bisontium, Bisunzium,
Besantio, Vesonticorum, Vesontiensium od. Crisopolinorum civitas,
Besantio,
Besançon, Stadt, Frankr. (Doubs)
Vesprimia, -ium, (Bespremiensis),
Veszprim, Stadt, Ungarn.
Vetuna,
Bettona, Stadt, Ital. (Perugia)
Vibiscum, Viviscus, Bibiscum, Viviacum,
Vevey, Stadt, Schweiz (Waadt)
Vindobona, Vendobona, Vindomana, Vindomina, Juliobona, Flaviana
castra, Vienna, Vienna Austriae od. Fluviorum, Vienni (Wi.), Wiena,
-nna, Winna, Byenna (Winensis),
Wien, Stadt, Niederösterr.
Vin-, Bindogladia,
Blandford, Stadt, England (Dorset)
Vinovia,
Binchester, D., England (Durham)
Viromagus, Bromagus,
Promasing, D., Schweiz (Freiburg)
Vocetius mons,
d. Bötzberg, Schweiz (Aargau)
Vormatia (Worm.), Guormatia, Var, War-, Vurmaca, Wormacium
(Wormatiensis), Vangio, Vangiona, Vangiones, Guarmatia, Vangionum
Augusta, Gormetia, Wangla, Wangionis civitas, Vangium, Vormatius,
Borbe-, Borbitomagus,
Worms, Stadt, Hessen (Rheinhess.)
Vorotunum,
Borodino, D., Rußland (Moskau)
Vosagus,
Besage, D., Frankr. (Ardennes)
Vulsiniensis, Vulsinus od. S. Christinae lacus,
See v. Bolsena, Ital. (Rom)
Vultonna, -tumnus,
Boutonne, Nfl. d. Charente, Frankr.
Barne,
Varna, Stadt, Bulgarien
Bedriacum, Vetriacum,
Calvatone, Mfl., Italien (Cremona)
Bergulae, Virgulae, Arkadiopolis,
Burgas, Stadt, Türkei (Ostrumelien)
Bicestria, Vicestria,
Bicêtre, D., Frankreich
Bidossa, Vidassus,
Bidassoa, Fluß, Mbs. v. Viscaya, zw. Frankreich u. Spanien
Bithervium,
Viterbo, Stadt, Italien (Rom)
Bizya,
Viza, Stadt, Türkei (Rumelien)
Bonna, Bunna, Verona, Ubiorum arx,
Bonn, Stadt, Preußen (Rheinprovinz)
Bacaracum, Bacharacum, Wacheracum, Bachracum, Bachoracum, Bacchiara,
Bacharach, Stadt, Preußen (Rheinprovinz)
Barda, -do, Brido, Burda,
Wartha, Stadt, Preußen (Schlesien)
Bavaria, Bajoaria, Bawaria, Bajuaria, Bajuarii, Bajuvaria, Bajuvarii,
Bavari, Bewari, Wawari, Bavoarii, Bojaria, Bejoaria, Bojoarii, Boji,
Noreja, Norica, Noricus ducatus,
Bayern
Bezelines,
Wetzles, D., Niederösterr.
Bicina,
Wieste, Nfl., d. Wömme (Weser), Hannover
Bidinum, Bydena,
Widdin, Stadt, Bulgarien
Bonsidelia,
Wunsiedel, Stadt, Bayern (Oberfranken)
Buda, Ovena, Wuda, Aquincum, Acincum,
Ofen (Teil v. Budapest), Stadt, Ungarn
Wanzinriuti,
Banzenreute, eh. Oschf. Baden (Konstanz)
Wazelinsruthi, Wacilinisruti, Becilinisruti, Bezzelinsruthi,
Wetzisreute, D., Württemberg (Donaukreis)
Westfali, -fala(h)i, -falhii, -faldingi, -phalia, Guestfalia,
Bestvalia, Saxones occidentales,
Westfalen, ... Preuß. Prov.
Wratislavia, Vratis-, Vresce-, Brez-, Braus-, Brathas-, Wratizlavia,
Wrotiz-, Fretislava, Wrotizla, Wratis-, Vraclavieusis episcopatus,
Brezlawensis, -laensis, Bretizlavensis civitas,
Breslau, Stadt, Preußen (Schlesien)
Wurcza terra,
Burzenland, Lschf., Siebenbürgen
The question is whether we can connect this with any particular
archaological culture. It seems to me many are situated at transport
corridors.
Torsten