From: george knysh
Message: 59362
Date: 2008-06-21
--- On Thu, 6/19/08, tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
--- In cybalist@... s.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
> Putting Torsten's usual fantasies aside ("Carpi" BTW does very well
> as an ethnonym related to the mountains, and is neatly attested for
> the 3rd c.AD, and for the Gothic period if you please),
By all means. Gol/a,b was the one who had problems with that equation,
not me.
> and leaving the Charudes and Ariovistus where they belong, let's look
> at something more worthwhile.
Yes, let's look at Ariovistus.
The Senate called the Aedui 'brothers' of the Roman people
http://classics. mit.edu/Caesar/ gallic.1. 1.html 33
no later than 60 BCE
http://en.wikisourc e.org/wiki/ Letters_to_ Atticus/1. 19
****GK: As mentioned, this is the letter indicating that Magetobriga was fought in 61 BCE. Here, BTW, is a description of it in Caesar's own words:
"If the unsuccessful battle and flight of the Gauls disquieted any, these, if they made inquiries, might discover that, when the Gauls had been tired out by the long duration of the war, Ariovistus, after he had many months kept himself in his camp and in the marshes, and had given no opportunity for an engagement, fell suddenly upon them, by this time despairing of a battle and scattered in all directions, and was victorious more through stratagem and cunning than valor." (DBG, 1:40)****
Caesar in his consulship 59 BCE
http://www.livius. org/caa-can/ caesar/caesar03. html
called Ariovistus 'king and friend'.
http://classics. mit.edu/Caesar/ gallic.1. 1.html 35
That means Ariovistus can not have been at war with the Aedui in 59
****GK: Correct.****
BCE. He must have been elsewhere before that in the 14 years he had
been without a roof (ie in 72 - 59 BCE).
****GK: Before the invasion which led to Magetobriga in 61 BCE, there had been other conflicts, with Ariovistus fighting on the side of the Sequani. Cf. DBG, 1:31: "Divitiacus the Aeduan spoke... ...'there were two parties in the whole of Gaul: that the Aedui stood at the head of one of these, the Arverni of the other. After these had been violently struggling with one another for the superiority for many years, it came to pass that the Germans were called in for hire by the Arverni and the Sequani. That about 15,000 of them [i.e. of the Germans] had at first crossed the Rhine [This "first crossing" is the arrival of Ariovistus GK]. but after that these wild and savage men had become enamored of the lands and the refinement and the abundance of the Gauls, more were brought over [It would have taken some time for this development. Meanwhile Ariovistus and his 15,000 took part in the never ending skirmishes of the never ending struggle GK]... ... with
these the Aedui and their dependents had repeatedly struggled in arms [at first with Ariovistus' 15,000, and then with him and the imports, as they trickled in. Group after group, like the Harudes. It took years. "Repeatedly". GK]
On the other hand, Caesar states
http://classics. mit.edu/Caesar/ gallic.1. 1.html 1
that the Helvetii were constantly at war with the Germani (ie. in the
time up to the Gallic War, before 58 BCE),
('when they either repel them from their own territories, or
themselves wage war on their frontiers', Latin 'in eorum finibus')
from whom they were separated by the Rhine
http://classics. mit.edu/Caesar/ gallic.1. 1.html 2
In other words the Helvetii were at war with someone, and losing, in
Southern Germany, an area where they had earlier prevailed.
http://www.fordham. edu/halsall/ basis/tacitus- germanygord. html
Part II, section 3
****GK: What Caesar said is this: "these [i.e. the Germani of Ariovistus GK]
were the same men whom the Helvetii, in frequent encounters, not only in their own territories, but also in theirs [the German], have generally vanquished, and yet can not have been a match for our army." (DBG 1:40) Caesar was attempting to boost his troups' morale before the battle with Ariovistus and his Germanic auxiliaries. Had the Helvetii been fleeing refugees, this would hardly have done the trick. But of course, the Helvetii were not fleeing refugees. Cf. also the point made in Cicero's latter to Atticus of 15 March 60: "Atque in re publica nunc quidem maxime Gallici belli versatur metus. Nam Haedui fratres nostri pugnam nuper malam pugnarunt, et Helvetii sine dubio sunt in armis excursionesque in provinciam faciunt."
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/cicero/att1.shtml
I suggest that Ariovistus was active in Southern Germany at the time,
colonizing it(?).
****GK: The known facts have him colonizing Sequaniland. ****
Torsten