--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
>
> > But also phonetically Proto-Vasconic '+gasi-' "salty" is usable as
> > the basis of a loan of Latin 'ca:seus' "cheese":
> > 1. In loans one shouldn't count on complete correspondence in the
> > degree of the plosive, particularly when the ... two languages in
> > question show plosive systems of quite different structure as one
> > must anyway assume for Proto-Latin and its Vasconic contact
> > language.
> > [TP: Vennemann shouldn't worry here; it is pretty certain
> > Proto-Vasconic unvoiced stops in anlaut have been voiced in Basque
> > as can be seen eg. in 'bide' "road", the combining form of which,
> > in which the anlaut is not word-initial, is '-pide'; thus the
> > Proto-Vasconic might have been '*katz' "salt", *kazi "salty".
>
> A better example perhaps is Aquitanian 'CISON', basque 'gizon'
> "man". '*katz' "salt" and *kazi "salty" might thus be forms of the
> Basque language(s?) as late as Roman times (which is presupposed in
> the prevailing Latin > Basque theory anyway, in this case Latin
> 'caseu-' > Basque 'gatz').
Here are the relevant lines on this phenomemnon in Basque from Trask;
The History of Basque, pp. 129-130
'In native words, of course, the reinterpretation left only voiced
plosives in initial position. Hence we find plenty of ancient native
words throughout the country with forms like bizi 'alive', bum 'head',
gogo 'soul' and gatz 'salt', but practically no non-loan words with
initial voiceless plosives except those of more recent origin and
mostly severely localized distribution (initial d- is not found in
native words, of course, except in finite verb-forms, in which the
prefix d- is common; see Chapter 4). Early loans from Latin and
Romance show the same pattern, reflecting the fact that Pre-Basque had
only its single series of lenis plosives to render both voiced and
voiceless plosives in the lending language: hence
bake 'peace' (< pace),
bike 'pitch' (< pice),
Bortu(ak) 'the Pyrenees' (< portu),
berna 'calf, leg' (< perna),
bekatu 'sin' (< peccatu),
barkatu 'forgive' (< parcere),
bazkatu 'feed' (< pascere),
dorre 'tower' (< turre or Spanish torre),
denbora 'time' (< témpora),
gela 'chamber, room' (< cella),
gauza 'thing' (< causa),
gerezi 'cherry' (< ceresea),
garden 'clear' (of liquids) (< cardinu 'bluish'),
ganbara 'room' (< camera),
gertu 'certain; prepared' (< certu),
gorputz 'body' (< corpus);
balea 'whale' (< ballaena),
bedeinkatu 'bless' (< benedicere),
done 'saint' (< domine),
dim 'money' (Z diharü) (< denariu),
R Aezk dekuma 'tithe' (< *decuma),
damu 'regret' (< damnu),
B domeka 'Sunday' (< (dies) dominica),
garau 'grain' (< granu),
gura 'desire' (< gula),
gisu 'plaster' (< gypsu).
In a number of cases, however, we find an initial voiceless plosive
either as a regional variant or as the most usual form. Thus, for bake
'peace' (< pace) some areas have pake; beside common gorputz 'body', Z
and R have khorpitz and korpiz, respectively; next to bike 'pitch' (<
pice), pike is about equally common; titare ~ litara 'thimble' is
perhaps more widespread than ditare (< digitale); katea ~ katiña
'chain' (< catena) is much more usual than gate(a); katu 'cat' (<
cattu) is likewise more widespread than gatu; and kaiku 'wooden bowl'
(< caucu 'drinking vessel') is the only attested form of this word.
There are two reasons for this. First, Basque shows a sporadic but
notable tendency to devoice the initial plosive if the following
syllable contains a voiceless plosive (this observation would apply to
all five of the examples just cited). Note that the native words bihi
'grain', behi 'cow' and gurdi 'cart' are nowhere attested with
voiceless plosives, while their compounds bikain 'excellent' (<
*bihi-gain), bekorotz 'cow dung' (< *behi-korotz) and gurpil
'cartwheel' (< *gurdi-bil) are attested in places as pikain, pekorotz
and kurpil, showing exactly such voicing assimilation. Second, the
continuing influence of the neighbouring Romance languages, all of
which generally retain the initial voiceless plosives of Latin, may
have induced bilingual speakers to re-form the Basque words accordingly.'
One might recognize some words of recent contention here.
I will agree that
bekatu 'sin' (< peccatu)
http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/01paik-betr_gen.html
since that is also the gloss in the surrounding Romance languages,
but what is
bake 'peace' (< pace),
http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/KuhnText/08pauk-stechen.html
so similar to the Celtic poc "kiss" words, and supposedly with the
same meaning doing here?
Note also the many root a's in the supposed Latin donors.
Latin pasco: (~ Basque bazka- "feed") has been proposed (by Martynov,
repeated by Gol/a,b) as a correspondence to Slavic pas-ti, pas-oN,
-es^i "make graze", cf.
http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/HbHpHg.html
thus in my book here a loan from Venetic.
>
> > ].
>
Torsten