Re: The scientist's etymology debate

--- Carl Hult <Carl.Hult@...> wrote:

> My intention wasn't to upset anyone, only to raise
> doubts over four
> words I think have the wrong origin or at least have
> been given the
> wrong history.

It's good to discuss things and throw out different
ideas in a calm, rational manner without resorting to
ideologies.

> Given what I now know about butter I
> can safely
> abandon that word and move on.

I think you raise an interesting point by suggesting
that the word may not be native to Greek. I believe it
did pass from Greek to the other European languages.

>Cheese, church and
> rush is another
> story altogether.

We'll see. You'll need to back up your argument with
relevant facts.

>To me the latin caseus "tastes"
> like it been
> introduced from elsewhere. I cannot describe it
> since I'm not a
> etymologist professionally, only someone who loves
> reading about it
> and loves reading your discussions here. My motives
> on this matter
> should have become clear by now. Anyway, the romans
> loved soft cheese
> and since the word caseus didn't live on that long
> (I do however
> think italian keeps a version of the word in
> dialects, correct me if
> I'm wrong here) and formaggio, fromage and so on
> took its place it
> couldn't have had a very strong position within the
> roman society and
> vocabulary.

I disagree on the relevance of this. Caseus looks
related to to Slavic kvass (vel sim) and if so,
probably did originally refer to oozy, watery slop
like cottage cheese. But caseus is very much alive in
Spanish queso and Portuguese queijo, some Italian
"dialects", I think in Sardinian and I don't know
about Romanian.
Formaggio/fromage refers to the cheese mold (the
wooden one, not the bacterial one --i.e. the "form")
and it very well may have signaled a change in cheese
technology that occurred when the Romans found a new
type of cheese in the provinces or wherever.
Latin caseus does look like the source of Germanic
cheese words and possibly of Island Celtic.
There does seem to be an issue of why /k/ in Latin,
and why the intervocalic /-s-/. So it does look like
it may be a loanword. Torsten et al. mentioned the
Basque form, which looks a whole lot like it could be
related. I wonder, though, whether the Basque form
could ultimately be from some Western IE language and
also be related to Slavic kvass (vel sim)?

>
> I know that isn't a strong case I'm building but
> unless someone gives
> me a text where it says "we took the word cheese
> from the romans" I
> will go on doubting the etymology for the word
> cheese, at least as
> far as germanic speakers getting it from the romans.

But you've provoked an interesting discussion and
that's important.

>
> Rush hasn't been discussed. Does that mean that you
> agree with me
> (and Elof Hellquist) in not thinking the english
> word rush comes from
> a latin source or has it been forgotten?

Maybe it just means no one has gotten around to it
yet.

. . .

> A question for you before I leave to yet again
> admire your skills:
> Brass is listed at etymonline.com as being a
> "mystery word".
> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=brass
> Yet it has a striking resemblance to latin bractea.
> Could it be
> related or come from the latin word? Or could it as
> the site quietly
> suggests, akin to swedish brasa, fire?

I've seen a lot of suggestions for brass.
See ferrum < *fersom < *bhersom < Semitic *barzum (vel
sim). I believe Miguel brought this up about 10 years
ago or so.
I've also seen it related to some word + Latin aes --a
bit sketchy.
There are some Germanic words that have been bandied
around. I think there was an OE braes. or somethink
like that.
I've also seen it as an alteration on bronze from aes
brundisium.
In Spanish, at least in spoken Latin American Soanish,
brass and bronze are the same word.