--- "Brian M. Scott" <
BMScott@...> wrote:
> At 4:40:57 AM on Saturday, May 31, 2008, tgpedersen
> wrote:
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "mkelkar2003"
> <swatimkelkar@...> wrote:
>
> >
>
http://dnghu.org/Indo-European-Languages/viewforum.php?f=13&sid=5a341258abb3261b7aae1ad952c54a0d
>
> > Thank you, MKelkar. Because, in it, I find
> MacBain's An
> > Etymological Dictionary of the Gaelic Language,
> with 2
> > pages worth of words in p-
>
> You found it before, and we went through this just
> under a
> year ago. It appears that you'd still rather rely
> on
> uninformed impressions and a very dated work than do
> any
> serious investigation.
>
> > http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb28.html#MB.P
> > http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb29.html
> > http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb30.html
> > which is odd, since Gaelic is a q-Celtic language.
>
> > Some of the frequent explanations from Latin are
> > undoubtedly correct, but you're struck by the
> tortuousness
> > of some of the derivations,
>
> No, *you* are.
>
> > both the semantic and the morphological ones
> ('formed
> > from', indeed),
>
> Your incredulity is misplaced. 'Formed from X'
> appears to
> be MacBain's abbreviation for 'adapted from X to
> Irish/Gaelic phonology', or at least to include that
> sense.
> An example is the entry for <pàisd> 'a child':
>
> Irish páisde; formed from Middle English páge,
> boy,
> Scottish page, boy, now English page.
>
> In fact Middle English or Anglo-Norman <page>,
> /pa:dZ&/ or
> the like, was borrowed into Irish as <páitse>,
> representing
> something like /pa:t^s^&/. Modern <páiste> 'a
> child' and
> Sc.Gael. <pàisde> ~ <pàiste> have metathesized the
> cluster.
>
> Derivation of EIr <páb(h)áil> 'pavement' (whence
> <páil>) and
> <páb(h)álta> 'paved' from English <pave> isn't quite
> so
> clearcut, but it is in fact quite plausible, and if
> you
> don't know why, you're not in a position to be
> skeptical.
>
> Brian
>
I just took a look at the section and most are
plausible. True, there are some odd ones. Some may be
onomatopoeic. Others may just be from P-Celtic. I did
see some of the /p-/ from Germanic Torsten sees as
potentially NWB
Here's everything in Mac Bain that remotely seems to
fit in with Torsten's /p-/ substrate (including Gmc
words with p-).
And yes, Mac Bain's is outdated and I was told, also
very regional.
P
pab
shag, refuse of flax, wooly hair, and (M`A.) tassel (=
bab), Middle Irish papp, popp, sprig, tuft, Early
Irish popp, bunch, which Stokes refers to a Celtic
*bobbú-, *bhobh-nú-, from *bhobh, *bhabh, Latin faba,
bean, Greek @Gpomfós, blister, pémfix, bubble, Lettic
bamba, ball, Indo-European bhembho-, inflate. English
bob, cluster, bunch, appears in the 14th century, and
Scottish has bob, bab correspondingly; the Gadelic and
English are clearly connected, but which borrowed it
is hard to say. the meaning of pab as "shag, flax
refuse" appears in the Scottish pab, pob. Borrowing
from Latin papula, pimple, root pap, swell, has been
suggested.
padhadh
thirst, Manx paa; seemingly formed by regressive
analogy from the adjective pàiteach, thirsty, a
side-form of pòiteach, drinking, bibulous, from pòit,
Latin pôtus, drunk. Middle Irish paadh is explained by
Stokes as *spasâtu-, root spas or spes, Latin spiro,
breathe, Welsh ffun, breath, from *sposnâ. For
phonetics See piuthar.
pailleart
a box on the ear, a blow with the palm: *palm-bheart,
"palm-action", from Latin palma, palm; cf. Welsh
palfad, stroke of the paw, Breton palfod, blow on the
cheek.
pailt
plentiful, pailteas, plenty, Manx palchys, Cornish
pals, plenteous, Middle BR. paout, numerous, Breton
paot, many, much; the Gaelic is in all likelihood a
Pictish word - a root qalt, Indo-European qel,
company, collection, as in clann, q.v.
paisg
wrap; See pasgadh.
pait
a hump, lump, Irish pait, Middle Irish pait, mass;
also Irish paiteóg, small lump of butter; from English
pat. Skeat thinks the English is from the Gaelic, but
the p is fatal to the word being native Gadelic.
pàiteag
a periwinkle (H.S.D., for Heb.):
palla
green shelf in a rock (Lewis); Norse pallr, step,
dais.
panna
a pan; from Middle English panne, now pan.
pannal , pannan
a band or company, also bannal, q.v.; from English
band.
parcas
a rhapsody (M`A.):
paradh
pushing, brandishing; cf. purr.
pardag
a pannier (Arms.):
partan
a crab, portan (Skye), Irish partán, portán, Middle
Irish partan; Scottish partan. Early Irish partar,
partaing, ruby?
pasgadh
a wrapping, covering, pasgan, a bundle, pasg, a
faggot; cf. Irish faisg, a pen, Welsh ffasg, bundle,
which last is certainly from Latin fasces.
pasmunn
expiring pang ( H.S.D.); from English spasm? H.S.D.
gives also the meaning "cataclysm applied to the sores
of a dying person".
peasg
gash in skin, chapped gashes of hands, cranny, Welsh
pisg, blisters; Gaelic is possibly of Pictish origin.
The Scottish pisket shrivelled has been compared.
peata
a pet, Irish peata, Early Irish petta; English pet.
Both English and Gadelic are formed on some cognate of
French petit, little, English petty (Stokes).
peic
a peck, Irish peic, Welsh pec; from English pec.
peighin
a penny, Irish pighin, Early Irish pingin; from
Anglo-Saxon pennding, Norse peningr, now English
penny.
peilig
a porpoise; from Scottish pellack.
peileasach
frivolous; cf. Scottish pell, a soft, lazy person.
peileid
cod, husk, bag:
peileid
a slap on the head, the skull or crown of the head; in
the last sense, cf. Scottish pallet, crown of the
head, Middle English palet, head-piece. In the sense
of "slap", cf English pelt.
peineag
a chip of stone for filling crevices in wall; from
Scottish pinning, pinn (do.), allied to English pin.
peirceall
the jaw, lower part of the face, corer, Irish
peircioll, cheekblade, corer: *for-ciobhull, "on-jaw"?
See ciobhull.
péire
the buttocks, Irish péire (O'R.); cf. Cornish pedren,
buttock, Welsh pedrain. The word peurs, lente perdere
(M`A.), is doubtless connected.
péiris
testiculi (H.S.D.); apparently from French pierre.
peithir
a forester (pethaire, M`D.), peithire, a message boy
(M`A.); cf. Scottish peddir, a pedlar, English pedlar.
peòdar
pewtar, Irish péatar, Welsh ffeutar; from English
pewter. Also feòdar, q.v.
peurda
flake of wool off the cards in the first carding:
peursair
perchman, shore herd (Carm.):
pibhinn
lapwing; from Scottish peeweip, English peewit. The
true Gaelic is adharcan, "horned one" (from adharc,
because of the appearance of its head).
pic
pitch, Irish pic, Welsh pyg; from Middle English pik,
now pitch.
pìc
a pike, Irish pice, Welsh pig, from the English
piceal
pike, Irish picill (Fol.); from the English
pigeadh, pigidh
earthen jar, Irish pigín, Welsh picyn; from English,
Scottish piggin, pig, which is a metaphoric use of
English pig, sow.
pighe, pigheann
a pie, Irish píghe; from the English
pigidh
robin redbreast (H.S.D.); a confused use of English
pigeon?
pilig
peel, peeling (Dial.); from the English See piol.
pill
turn, Irish pillim, better fillim (O'Br.); See till
for discussion of the root.
pine
a pin, peg, Irish pionn (Lh.), Welsh pin; from Middle
English pinne, now pin.
pinnt
a pint, Irish piúnt (Fol.); from the English
pioc
pick, Irish piocaim; from English pick. Thurneysen
thinks that Welsh pigo is ultimately from the Romance
picco (point), French pique, or allied thereto. Skeat
takes the English from Celtic; but See Bradley's
Stratmann.
piocach
a saith, coalfish (Wh.):
pìochan
a wheezing, Manx piaghane, hoarseness, Irish spiochan;
Scottish pech, pechin, panting, peught, asthmatic.
Onomatopoetic Cf. Latin pipire, chirp, pipe. Welsh has
peuo, pant.
pioghaid, pigheid
a magpie, Irish pioghaid ( Fol.), pighead ( O'R.);
from Scottish pyat, pyet, diminutive of pie, Middle
English pye, now usually mag-pie.
pioraid
hat, cap; See biorraid.
pìorbhuic , piorrabhuic
periwig, Irish peireabhuic; from the English
piorr
scrape or dig ( H.S.D.), stab, make a lunge at one (
M`A.); the first sense seems from Scottish, English
pare; for the second, See purr.
piorradh
a squall, blast; from L.Middle English pirry,
whirlwind, blast, Scottish pirr, gentle breeze, Norse
byrr, root bir, pir, of onomatopoetic origin (Skeat,
sub pirouette, for English).
pìos
a piece, Irish píosa; from English piece, French
pièce, Low Latin pettium, from Gaulish *pettium,
allied to Gaelic cuit, Pictish pet (see pit).
piphenaich
giggling (M`D.):
piseach
prosperity, luck, Manx bishagh, Irish biseach, Middle
Irish bisech. Cf. Irish piseóg, witchcraft, Middle
Irish pisóc, charm, Manx pishag, charm, Cornish
pystry, witchcraft, Middle Breton pistri, veneficium,
which Bugge refers to Latin pyxis, medicine box (see
pìos).
piseag
a kitten, Irish puisín; from English puss. Aran Irish
piseóg, See bream.
pit
hollow or pit (Dict. only), @Gkúsqos, Middle Gaelic
pit (Dean of Lismore), Manx pitt, Irish pit; from
Anglo-Saxon pyt, pit, well, now pit, from Latin
puteus, well. for force, cf. Breton fetan, fountain,
fete, @Gkúsqos. The non-existent Dict. meaning is due
to the supposed force of topographic pit discussed in
Pit-.
Pit-
prefix in farm and townland names in Pictland, meaning
"farm, portion"; Old Gaelic pet, pett, g. pette (Book
of Deer), a Pictish word allied to Welsh peth, part,
Gaelic cuid. See further under cuid and pìos.
piùg
a plaintive note (H.S.D.); cf. Welsh puch, sigh.
Onomatopoetic?
piuthar
sister, Irish siur, Early Irish siur, fiur, g. sethar,
fethar, Old Irish siur, Welsh chwaer, Cornish huir,
Breton hoar: *svesôr, g. svestros (Stokes); Latin
soror (= sosor); English sister; Lithuanian sesu@ó;
Sanskrit svâsar.
plaibean
a lump of raw flesh, a plump boy; founded on Scottish
plope, as in plab above. Cf. English plump.
plaide
a blanket, Irish ploid; English plaid, Scottish
plaiden, coarse woollen cloth, like flannel, but
twilled: all are founded on Latin pellis, but whether
invented by Gadelic or English is at present doubtful.
Skeat says it is Celtic, a view which, as the case
stands, has most to say for it; cf. Gaelic peallaid,
sheepskin. Dunbar's "Hieland Pladdis".
plam
anything curdled: cf. Breton plommein, a clot, as of
blood. See slaman. M`A. gives it the meaning of "fat
blubber cheek". Arg. has "bainne plumaichte", curdled
or soured mild.
plaosg
a husk, shell, Manx pleayse, Irish plaosg, Welsh plisg
(pl.), Breton pluskenn. This Ernault considers
borrowed from Romance - French peluche, shag, plush,
English plush, from Latin *pilucius, hairy, pilus,
hair: an unlikely derivation. Seemingly blaosg is
another form (Manx bleayst, Middle Irish blaesc, Welsh
blisg): *bhloid-sko-, root bhlo@-i, bhle@-, bhel,
swell, etc.; Greek @Gfloiós ( @G*bhlovio-?), bark,
shell, @Gflédwn, bladder.
plàt
a sort of cloth made of straw; from Scottish plat,
plait, English plait. M`A. has the meaning "thrust,
clap on", from Scottish plat, a stroke to the ground,
blow with the fist, Middle English platten, strike,
throw down, Anglo-Saxon plaettan.
plath , pladh
a flash, glance, puff of wind; from *svl@.-, root svel
of solus?
pleadhag
a dibble, paddle; also bleaghan, spleadhan, q.v.
pleadhart
a buffet, blow; from pailleart?
pleasg
a noise, crack, Irish pléasg (pleasg Lh.) - an Irish
word (M`A.), Irish pleasgan or pléascán, noise: cf.
Scottish pleesk, plesk, plash, pleesh-plash, dabbling
in water or mud.
pleasg
a string of beads:
pleat
a plait; from Scottish plett, English plait.
pleigh
quarrel, fight, Irish pléidh, debate; Scottish pley,
quarrel, debate, all from Middle English pleie, plege,
Anglo-Saxon plega, game, fight, English play.
pleoisg, plodhaisg
a booby, simpleton; cf. Welsh bloesg, a stammerer
(mlaisqo-), Sanskrit mlecchati, talk barbarously,
mleccha, foreigner, Latin blaesus, Greek @Gblaisós.
pleòdar
pewter; from English spelter, with leaning on peòdar.
pliad
(H.S.D., Dial.), a plot of ground; of Scandinavian
origin - Swed plaetti, a plot of ground, English plot,
plat (Dr Cameron).
pliadach
flat, as of foot (Carm.):
pliadh
a splay foot; from English splay.
pliaram
babbling (H.S.D.); for *bliaram; See blialum, from
Scottish blellum.
plionas
a hypocritical smile (Wh.):
pliut
a clumsy foot; cf. Scottish ploots, the feet when bare
(Shet.), plootsacks, feet. Hence pliutach, a seal. See
spliut.
plod
a clod; from Scottish plod, ploud, a green sod
(Aberdeen).
plod
a pool of standing water, Manx, Irish plod; from
Middle English plodde, a puddle, English plod,
originally "to wade through water", ploude, wade
through water (Grose), Scottish plout, plouter (do.).
plodadh
parboiling; from Scottish plot, to scald or burn with
boiling water, plottie, a rich and pleasant hot dring
made of cinnamon, cloves, etc. Also "floating" wood
down river.
ploic
the mumps; See pluic.
plosg
palpitate, throb, Irish plosg ( O'R., Fol.), blosgadh,
sounding, Early Irish blosc ("ro clos blosc-béimnech a
chride", the hitting sound of his heart). See ++blosg.
plub
an unweildy mass or lump; from the English plump.
pluc
a lump, pimple, Manx plucan, pimple; seemingly a side
form of ploc. Middle Irish has plucc, club or mace.
Cf. Scottish pluke, a pimple.
pluc
pluck, Manx pluck; from the English
plùc
beat, thump; from Middle English pluck, a stroke.
plucas
the flux; founded on Latin fluxus?
plùch
squeeze, compress, Irish pluchaim, Manx ploogh,
suffocation:
pluic
cheek, blub cheek, Irish pluc: "puffed cheek"; from
ploc.
pluideach
club-footed; See pliut.
plum
plunge into water; See plumb.
plùm
one who sits stock still, dead calm:
pluma , plumba
a plummet, Irish plumba; from English plumb, French
plomb, from Latin plumbum, lead.
plumb
noise of falling into water, plunge; from English
plump.
plundrainn
plunder, booty; from English plundering.
plùr
flour, Irish flúr; from Middle English flour; same as
English flower, flour being for "flower of wheat".
plutadh
falling down, as of rain; from Scottish plout, Belg.
plotsen, German plotzlich, sudden, from *plotz,
"quickly falling blow".
poca
a bag; from Scottish pock, Anglo-Saxon poca, Norse,
poki, Old French poche.
pòca , pòcaid
pocket, pouch, Irish póca, pócait (Four Masters), bag,
pouch; from Middle English póke, Anglo-Saxon poca, as
poca. English pocket, Middle English poket, is a
diminutive. K.Meyer takes the Irish from the Norse
poki.
pòireagan
rag, rags (M`D.):
poitean
a small truss of hay or straw; See boitean.
poll
a pool, a hole, mud, Irish, Early Irish poll, Welsh
pwll, Cornish pol, Breton poull; from Late Latin
padulus, pool, a metathesis of palus, paludis, marsh
(Gaidoz), whece It. padula, Sp. paúl. Teutonic has
Anglo-Saxon pól, English pool, Dutch poel, Old High
German pfuol, German pfuhl. Skeat considers that poll
is from Low Latin padulis, and that the Anglo-Saxon
pól was possibly borrowed from the British Latin or
Latin remains seen in place-names having port, street,
-chester, etc. (Principles @+1 437).
poll, pollair
nostril, Irish polláire, poll-sróna; from poll.
pollag
the fish pollock or lythe - gadus pollachius, of the
cod and whiting genus, Irish pullóg; from poll? Hence
the English name. The Irish English pollan, Scottish
powan, is a different fish - of the salmon genus.
pollairean
the dunlin (Heb.), polidna alpina. Mr Swainson
(Folklore of British Birds) translates its Gaelic name
as "bird of the mud pits ( poll)", an exact
description, he says.
ponach
boy, lad (Dial.), poinneach (W.Ross); cf. Manx
ponniar, a boy, a small fish basket? In ARg. boinnean
(Wh.), from boinne. Cf. use of proitseach. The word is
for bonach.
pòr
seed, spore, Irish pór, seed, clan, Welsh par, germ;
from Greek @Gspóros, seed, English spore.
pòs
marry, Old Gaelic pústa, wedded (Book of Deer), Middle
Irish pósaim; from Latin sponsus, sponsa, betrothed,
from spondeo, I promise (English spouse, respond,
etc.).
prab
discompose, ravel (pràb, H.S.D.), prabach,
dishevelled, ragged, blear-eyed, Irish prábach (O'R.):
"suddenly arrayed", from prap?
pràbar, pràbal
a rabble; from pràb, prab, discompose. See prab.
pracas
hotch-potch; cf. Scottish, English fricasse.
pràcais
idle talk; from English fracas?
pràdhainn
press of business, flurry (M`A. for Islay), Irish
praidhin, Old Irish brothad, a moment; See priobadh.
prainnseag
mince collops, haggis; from prann, pound (M`A.), a
side form of pronn, q.v.
pràmh
a slumber, slight sleep:
pràmh , priam
heaviness; properly "blear-eyed-ness"; cf. Irish srám,
eye-rheum.
praonan
an earthnut; See braonan.
prap
quick, sudden, Irish prab, Middle Irish prap; See
under priobadh.
prasach
a manger, crib, frasach, (M`Rury):
prasgan, brasgan
a group, flock; cf. Irish prosnán, a troop, company
(O'R.):
prat
a trick (Wh.); pratail, tricky; See protaig.
preachan
a crow, kite, moor-bittern, Irish preachan, crow,
kite, osprey (accordinng to the adj. applied), Middle
Irish prechan, crow, raven:
preas
a bush, brier, Welsh prys, burshwood, covert:
*qr@.st-, root qer of crann? The Gaelic, which is
borrowed, is doubtless of Pictish origin.
preathal
confusion of mind, dizziness; See breitheal.
prìne
a pin; from the Scottish preen, Middle English
pre@-on, Anglo-Saxon préon, Norse prjónn, German
pfriem.
priobadh
winking, twinkling (of the eye), Irish prap in le prap
na súl, in the twinkling of the eyes (Keating), from
prap, sudden, preaba in na bi preaba na sula muich
(B.of Moyra), Middle Irish prapud, brief space (as
twinkling of the eyes), la brafad súla, older friha
brathad sula, where we get the series prapud, brafad,
brathad (g. brotto), Old Irish brothad, moment. Stokes
compares the similar Gothic phrase - in brahva augins,
where brahv might = a British *brap, borrowed into
Irish. The form frafad could easily develop into brap;
the difficulty is the passinng of th of brothad (which
gives g. brotto) info f of brafad (but See
Rev.Celt.@+10 57). The Gaelic priobadh has its vowel
influenced by preabadh, kicking, that is, breab, q.v.
Zim. (Zeit.@+32 223) cites brofte, momentary, and says
brafad is made from bro, eyebrow, falsely.
procach
a year-old stag (Rob Donn):
proghan
dregs, lees:
pròis
pride, haughtiness; from Scottish prossie, prowsie,
nice and particular, Dut. prootsch, preutsch, proud,
English proud. The Arran Dial. has pròtail for
pròiseil.
proitseach
a boy, stripling; cf. brod balaich, brodan, boy, from
brod. The termination is -seach, really a fem. one. In
Arg. propanach, a boy, from prop, also geamht.
pronasg
brimstone; formed on Scottish brunstane, Norse
brenisteinn, English brimstone. Dial. of Badenoch has
the form pronnasdail.
pronn
foon; See proinn.
pronn
bran, Manx pronn; See pronn. Hence Scottish pron.
pronn
pound, bray, mash, Manx pronney, pouding; see, for
root and form, ++bronn, distribute, from the root
bhrud, break, which thus in Gaelic means (1)
distribute, (2) break or crush. Hence pronnag, a
crumb, Scottish pronacks.
pronndal
muttering, murmering (Dial. brundlais):
prop
a prop, Irish propa; from English prop.
propanach
a boy (Wh.):
protaig
a trick; from Scottish prattick, trick, stratagem,
Anglo-Saxon pr@..., craft, pr@..., tricky, English
pretty, Norse prettr, a trick.
pùc
push, jostle; from the Scottish powk, thrust, dig,
Middle English pukken, pouken, póken, to thrust, poke,
English poke, German pochen, knock, Dial. fùc.
pùic
a bribe:
puicean
a veil, covering, Irish puicín:
puidse
a pouch; from the English
puinneag
sorrel:
puinneanach
beat, thump; from Middle English pounen, now pound,
Anglo-Saxon punian.
Puinse
punch, toddy; from English punch.
pùirleag
a crest, tuft, Irish puirleógach, crested, tufted (
O'Br., Sh.), puirleog (O'R.) - an Irish word. See
pùrlag.
pùlas
pot-hook (Dial.); See bùlas.
punnd
a pound, Irish punta, punt, Middle Irish punt; from
the English
punnd
a place for securing stray cattle, a pound; from the
English pound.
punntainn, funntainn
benumbment by cold or damp; cf. English swoon, Middle
English swoghne, *swog-. Cf. Scottish fundy.
pùrlag
a rag, tatter, fragment:
purr
thrust, push; from Scottish porr, thrust, stab, Dutch
porren, poke, thrust, Low.German purren, poke about;
further English pore.
pus
a cat, Irish pus; from the English
put
the cheek (Stew., H.S.D.); from English pout.
put
thrust, push; from Scottish put, push, thrust, Middle
English puten, push, now English put. Also Gaelic but,
butadh.
pùt
a large buoy, usually of inflated sheepskin; seemingly
of Scand. origin - Swedish Dial. puta, be inflated;
cf. English pudding, Welsh pwtyn, a short round body,
Cornish pot, bag, pudding.
putag
oarpin, also butag; from English butt. Cf. Am Buta
Leòdhasach, the Butt of Lewis.
putag
a pudding, Irish putóg; from the English
putag
a small rig of land (H.S.D.):