--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
>
> > I remember on another list, substrate list, I think,
> > someone referred to IE elements in a substrate of
> > Pyrenees Ibero-Romance.
> > There are IE looking elements in Basque that are
> > non-Celtic, non-Latin/Romance. Some of them also seem
> > to show up in Sardinian, which suggests they may be
> > related to Lusitanian.
>
> Many of those IE loans in Basque Trask meant were from Latin have
> -a-, as if from the 'mot populaire' layer of Latin.
> A high proportion of those words Gol/ab proposes as common to Italic
> and Slavic have -a-.
> Krahe's Alteuropäisch had the 'aquales -a-'.
> Marsian might have had -a- it if I'm right about Tamfana <
> *Dem(s)-po(t)-na.
I forgot Kuhn's list of common Germanic/Italic roots in -a-, plus the
fact that many Latin sea-words have -a-
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/30032
from the same article,
Kuhn: Ablaut, a ind Altertumskunde
'Besonders groß und zentral ist der zu Wasser und Meer gehörige
Wortschatz mit dem Stammvokal a, soweit ich sehe, im Lateinischen und
Germanischen. Im ersten sind es an wichtigeren Wörtern (außer na:vis
und na:re/ nata:re) aqua und amnis, lacus und stagnum, mare, sal und
vadum. Von ihnen haben Entsprechungen im Germanischen aqua, lacus,
mare, sa:l (als salzige See" : altn. Eystra salt Ostsee") und vadum.
Zwei oder drei andre Wörter hat das Germanische mit dem Griechischen
gemein: *sandaz Sand" (besonders der Seesand, auch Ufer") =
á:mathos, *o:fero- Ufer" = á:perros/*é:peiros Festland" und
vielleicht ags. no:sa/no:se Halbinsel" neben griech. ne:sos Insel".
Altes a haben in den germanischen Sprachen fernerhin *aBjo: Ebbe" (zu
griech. ápios fern"), *ahwjo: Insel" (abgeleitet von *ahwo: Wasser"
= lat. aqua), *alBiz Fluß" (zu lat. albus weiß"), *haBa- Haff"
(zu hafjan heben" = lat. capere), *nas- Halbinsel" (ags. næs, altn.
nes, zu idg. *na:s- Nase" und im Ablaut zu ags. no:sa/no:se), staþ-
Gestade" (zu idg. *sta:- stehen") und schließlich *war- Meer" (ags.
wær, altn. ver, zu altind. va:r-, toch.A wär Wasser") mit der
Ableitung *wariþ/*waruþ-Werder, Ufer", außerdem wahrscheinlich
*saiwaz See", das am ehesten = lat. saevus wild" ist.'
"Particularly great and central is the vocabulary pertaining to water
and sea with stem vowel a, as far as I can see, in Latin and Germanic.
In the former wrt important words (apart from na:vis and na:re/
nata:re) aqua and amnis, lacus and stagnum, mare, sal and vadum. Of
those the following have correspondences in germanic: aqua, lacus,
mare, sa:l (as "salty sea" : ON Eystra salt "Baltic Sea") and vadum.
Two or three other Words Germanic has in common with Greek: *sandaz
"sand" (in particular sea sand, also "bank") = á:mathos, *o:fero-
"bank" = á:perros/*é:peiros "mainland" and perhaps OE no:sa/no:se
"peninsula" beside Greek ne:sos "island". Old a occurs in the Germanic
languages further in *aBjo: "ebb" (corr. to Greek ápios "far"),
*ahwjo: "island" (derived from *ahwo: "water" = Lat. aqua), *alBiz
"river" (corr. to Lat. albus "white"), *haBa- "coastal lake"
(corr. to hafjan "raise" = Lat. capere), *nas- "peninsula" (OE næs, ON
nes, corr. to PIE *na:s- "nose" and in Ablaut to OE no:sa/no:se),
staþ- "bank" (corr. to PIE *sta:- "stand") und finally *war- "sea" (OE
wær, ON ver, corr. to Sanskr. va:r-, Toch.A wär "water") with the
derivation *wariþ/*waruþ- "bank", further probably *saiwaz "sea",
which most likely = Lat. saevus is "wild".
So, how do we make sense of that?
Are these words loans in Germanic and Italic from Baltic Venetic from
when the Italic languages remained in Central Europe?
Did that Baltic Venetic reinstate (like Indo-Aryan) or keep the
pre-PIE /a/, the ablaut vowel, which became e/o/zero elsewhere?
The Elbe/albis correspondence is especially interesting here.
Wrt. *wariþ/*waruþ- "bank" (also "inland island") note the maps
'53 werder.jpg' and '54 werd(er).jpg' in the folder 'Maps from
Udolph' in the Files section (anybody figured out how to make tinyurls
to the Files section work)? In spite of those maps, *wariþ/*waruþ-
does occur in Scandinavia, eg the island of Nyord (< *-warþ, cf
Vordingborg) between Sjælland and Møn, Sw. Varberg, and many others
traditionally derived from *warð- "guard" (German wart- in eg
Wartburg, interesting that the German toponyms have werd-/ward-,
spreading far beyond Germanic territory, the appelative in German
being wart- (you could argue an inland island is a refuge from the
enemy); ultimately the word, according to Venneman, is a loan from
Semitic. So: Phoenician lends word to Baltic Venetic (or to Venetic in
general, and thus into Baltic Venetic?), and Germanic and Italic
expands into the area and borrows the word. Nice, huh?
Torsten