From: fournet.arnaud
Message: 58451
Date: 2008-05-13
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@...>
>> > ***
>>
>> You should take the whole thing from the start.
>>
>> *a is a rare vowel which conspicuously shows up only at the beginning of
>> words.
>
> ***
>
> Patrick:
>
> Wrong, as usual, Arnaud.
>
> *bha:- (2x), *da:-, *dha:l-, *ga:u-, *ka:-, *la:-, *ma:-, *na:u-, *pa:-,
> *ra:s-, *sa:, *ta:-, *wa:-.
>
> ***
In these exemples, the vowel a: is long,
something that is just as strange as short *a showing up only in the
initial.
In fact, _you_ are the one wrong.
The data that you alleged as proof are in fact a whole body of data,
that is abnormal from the start.
This long a: should be interpreted as eH2.
this is no **CaC, as Meillet and others noticed one century ago.
Arnaud
============
>> #a-
>> *e is a frequent vowel that appears everywhere, including at the
>> beginning
>> of words.
>>
>> It is therefore extremely interesting to suppose that *a is just *e
>> preceded
>> by some consonant.
>
> ***
>
> Patrick:
>
> The parallel examples *ple:-, *pla:-, *plo:-, suggests strongly that the
> pre-PIE inventory of vowels included *e, *a, and *o.
>
> ***
No,
you can't allege long vowels to be a proof that short vowels existed.
I think this is part of your erratic approach,
you disregard length,
you behave as though short and long vowels are the same,
The day you realize it's not the same,
you will have made a step forward.
I'm afraid you are still a long way up there.
Arnaud
============
>> Let's call it H assuming that H+e = a
>> Because e ALSO appears at the beginning of words,
>> you need two H
>> H1e = e
>> H2e = a
>>
>> Apart from accounting for the oddity of *a,
>> the next advantage of the theory is that all roots share a standard shape
>> (s-)C_C
>
> ***
>
> Patrick:
>
> Roots in the Vocalic Theory have the shapes *CV and *CVC (including *CV:).
>
> ***
Your theory is not "vocalic"
it's half in the middle of the ford between laryngeal theories and XIXth
century's theories,
which were 100% vocalic.
Arnaud
===========
>> The problem with your half-vocalic half laryngeal theory
>> with a e o as vowels and only one H
>> This theory does not explain why :
>> 1. a appears mainly at the beginning of words.
>> 2. a plays no morphological role, only e and o do.
>
> ***
>
> Patrick:
>
> The Vocalic Theory cannot be expected to explain what is not.
>
========
The laryngeal theory explains both what is and what is not,
From a sheer scientific point of view, your theory is inferior,
as it fails to explain oddities and holes,
while the other theory does.
Don't be surprised that nobody follows you.
Arnaud
==========
> 1. *a does not "mainly" occur at the beginning of words (*#a); that is
> ignorance of the data.
======
short a occurs about only at the beginning of words.
Long a: occurs after C_
but long a: is not short a
Again, you misunderstood the data.
Arnaud
============
>
> 2. *e and *o do not play morphological roles, *A does.
> ***
What does this mean ?
There is only apophonic e versus o
there is no root with e versus a
or a versus o
Arnaud
===========
>> The standard theory accounts for all these features with an overpowering
>> simplicity
>> and a minimalist set of 3 laryngeals.
>> It's no wonder everybody has accepted it,
>> It's obvious, it's simple,
>> It clarifies about everything nicely and elegantly.
>
> ***
>
> Patrick:
>
> I have raised several objections to the 'Laryngeal' Theory in
>
> http://geocities.com/proto-language/OneLaryngealVocalicTheory.htm
>
> If you want to dispute any of them, pick one.
>
> ***
I read it,
but I have not seen objections.
As a matter of fact,
I think that you should add a comparative table
explaining why your theory explains the abnormalites better than the
standard theory.
Arnaud
===========
>> There is no way back to vocalic theories.
>>
>> Your theory is not _new_
>> it's the old approach to PIE
>>
>> Arnaud
>
> ***
>
> Patrick:
>
> Wrong, as usual, Arnaud.
> The Vocalic Theory is new.
> If you maintain it is _not_, specify who proposed it before me.
> >
> ***
Your (half) vocalic theory is basically a modification of XIXth century's
PIE.
Arnaud
==========