From: fournet.arnaud
Message: 58349
Date: 2008-05-04
----- Original Message -----
From: "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@...>
> >
> > http://jdbengt.net/articles/Austric.pdf
>Sorry, I realized that this online paper isn't Bengtson's _Mother
>Tongue_ XI paper! The latter is much longer and presents more than
>100 "Greater Austric" lexical comparisons, most of which include
>Ainu reflexes. The paper contains, among other things, a note on
>phonological comparisons between Ainu and Nihali (for the latter is
>included by Bengtson in his proposed "Greater Austric" macro-phylum)
>and another one on a possible Austric substratum in Burushaski.
>Here I will offer my comments on some of your improvised Ainu-
>Eurasiatic lexical comparisons, keeping in mind that I have
>Bengtson's paper on my desk, while you don't (:^)).
>
====
Francesco,
do you have a web-reference for this other paper ?
Arnaud
===========
>You write:
>> man : kur
>> What about *kor "young man" ?
>> Cf. Greek kouros
>I have always seen this PIE verbal root reconstructed as *k^er-,
>*k^er@-, *k^ore-, or *k^re:-, and its meaning is always stated to be
>the verb 'to grow', not the noun 'young man' (which is only a
>particular development of this root in Greek).
========
Personally, I don't accept this connection :
To grow > young man
Arnaud
=========
>> What about Uralic *koj, *kom "man" ?
>The Proto-Uralic forms of the words you mention, as given in the
>Tower of Babel databases, would be:
>http://tinyurl.com/3gs7qx
>*koje (?) 'man, person'
>and
>http://tinyurl.com/4es9px
>*koj(e)-mV 'man, person'
>These proto-words looks very distant from Proto-Ainu *kur 'man,
>person' (--> Kamchatka Ainu ku:r 'men' = Sakhalin Ainu guru, Kuril
>Ainu kor-gur [redupl.?] 'husband'). On the contrary, the Austric
>proto-word *qulo 'man', thus reconstructed by Hayes and cited in
>Begtson's MT paper, looks much closer to Proto-Ainu *kur. Look at
>the Austroasiatic reflexes of this noun root!
==========
What are the reasons not to think these words are from *k_r to grow ?
Arnaud
===========
>
>http://tinyurl.com/6jnfe3
>Therefore, your comparison may go in the right direction although it
>is the Proto-Austric form of the pronoun, not its Proto-Ainu form as
>such, that should be compared in this case. In his MT paper (p.
>242), while discussing and rejecting Greenberg's hypotesis of the
>Eurasiatic (Nostratic) affiliation of Ainu, Bengtson writes:
>"One of the most decisive facts is that Ainu totally lacks the
>characteristic Eurasiatic *me/*te 'me/thee' pronominal pattern,
>having instead *ku/*an 'I/me'... and *E 'thou', with clear parallels
>in Austric... Greenberg admitted this, e.g... '<m> is the basic
>indicator of first person, and is found in every subgroup [of his
>Eurasiatic macro-phylum -- Francesco] except Ainu...'; and
>under 'Second-person <t>'... there is no mention of any Ainu reflex."
======
Yes
so it means Ainu is very little contaminated by Indo-European
like Turcic, Yukaghir, Japanese...
Arnaud
==========
>> Blood : kem
>> this word does not look at all Austric !
>Does it not? Why?
The austic words have affrictes.
Arnaud
=======
>True, Proto-Ainu *kEm 'blood' has been compared to Proto-Samoyed
>*kem or *k@... 'blood', Proto-Altaic *k'i_a:no 'blood, blood vessel',
>yet an Austric etymology for this term appears more likely. Besides
>*kEm 'blood', Proto-Ainu has *kam 'flesh', and ultimately these
>might be ablaut (or umlaut) variants of the same word. The
>reconstructed Proto-Austric words for 'blood', *hVm (Peiros) or *xam
>(Hayes), match Proto-Ainu *kEm/*kam very well.
=======
HmHm !
Arnaud
========
> Head : pa
> Cf. PIE preH2
> Cf. Finnish pää.
I don't know of a PIE root preH2 meaning 'head', but as regards
Finnish pää 'head', it is probably very distantly connected to Proto-
Ainu *pa 'head' through a long-range etymology. Indeed, Starostin
compares Proto-Austric *pVN 'head, top' (which, according to
Bengtson, may be the root of Proto-Ainu *pa through loss of final
velar nasal) and Proto-Eurasiatic *pVNV 'face, head' (which may be
the root of Finnish pää through the intermediate Proto-Uralic form
*päNe) -- see at
http://tinyurl.com/5mbnqp
> Root : rit
> Cf. English root !
Huh? You mean I should compare Proto-Ainu *rit 'root (--> shin-
rit 'roots of plants, ancestors', kem-rit 'blood vessel',
ryt 'tendons' etc.) with PIE *wer@..., *w(e)ra:d-, *wr@... 'twig,
root, branch, sprout'? Or are you asking me to compare Ainu and
English *directly*?
> Fire : apoy
> Cf. PIE puH2
The connection of Proto-Ainu *apOy 'fire, hearth' (> Hokkaido Ainu
ape, ambe, Kamchatka Ainu a:peh, Kuril Ainu aboi) with Nihali a:po
and Proto-Indonesian *apuy (= Proto-Austronesian *Sapuy, acc. to
Peiros < Proto-Austric *?puj-X 'fire, burn') was firdt proposed by
Kuiper back in 1948. Also in this case, you have selected for your
comparison a putatively "Eurasiatic" term (one of the PIE words
for 'fire', *peH2w-r., later colored to *paH2w-r.) which is,
however, connected by Starostin, in a long-range etymology, to Proto-
Austric *?puj-X via Proto-Eurasiatic *p'VxwV 'fire' -- see at
http://tinyurl.com/3ubjd4
> Proves nothing...
I invite you to read Bengtson's paper before jumping to such
conclusions.
Also:
Bengtson, John D. 1996. "Nihali and Ainu." _Mother Tongue_ 2: 51-55.
Blaz^ek, Vaclav. 1996. "Seeking the Relatives of Nihali." _Mother
Tongue_ 2: 57-60.
Begtson, John D., and Vaclav Blaz^ek. 2000. "Lexical Parallels
Between Ainu and Austric and Their Implications." _Archiv
Orientalni_ 68: 237-258.
Regards,
Francesco
===========
Thank you, Francesco.
but your additionnal comments have only made the whole thing less convincing
than it already was.
Arnaud
=======