Re: Djilas

--- tolgs001 <george_st@...> wrote:

> >The "Ugrian Mountains" protected the Hungarian
> complex from
> >their worst steppe enemies at that time.
>
> Those mountains are the Eastern Carpathians that
> separate Transylvania
> from Moldavia. They were by no means impenetrable.

****GK: Of course not. The point is that they afforded
a much better defense than the open steppes.
Aggressors had to try harder. Usually they didn't.
****

> Quite the contrary,
> most waves coming from the East crossed the
> mountains via traditional
> passes.

****GK: I see no real evidence to suggest that the
Pechenegs continued their onslaught against the
Hungarians by crossing the "Ugrian mountains". But
it's true that the security they afforded was only
relative. Three centuries earlier, the Avars had to
supplement it by erecting a string of defensive
"croatias" along the eastern slopes of the Carpathians
against the West Turks.****
*********************************************

>
> >If the Pechenegs had reached Transylvania as one of
> their eight
> >provinces, there would have been no security for
> the Hungarians.
>
> The Petchenegs converted from former enemies (who
> prompted the
> Hungarians to leave Ukraine) to an integrated
> military population,
> that soon ended up completely assimilated.

*****GK: I don't buy this for the period prior to
1036.*****

>
> >So I'll stick with my earlier conclusion: the
> >Pechenegs reached as far west as "Seret, Prut, and
> the
> >lower Danube". But not across the mountains, not
> >then.
>
> But 30-50-70-90 years after Constantin's writing his
> De administrando yes.

****GK: Nothing in the Old Ukrainian chronicles
verifies this for 982/1002/1022. For 1052 (=90) no
problem.****

at least in the first 1-2

> centuries, the
> ruling house along with the nobility (i.e. the
> ruling clans of the
> tribes that moved in after 896) were
> Turkish-speaking people.

****GK: I agree.****

They

> assimilated within a time frame of approx. two
> centuries
> linguistically, so that after a time span of
> diglossy Hungarians spoke
> only the Magyar language, so that "Turkey" (how it
> was called by
> Constantine) became Hungary (which in fact also
> means "a country of a
> Turkic nation"), whereas in the Hungarian language
> the country's name
> has been up to now "the Magyar country". In
> Hungarian, one doesn't use
> the exonym, that means Onogur.

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