Horse Sense (was: [tied] Re: Hachmann versus Kossack?)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "jouppe" <jouppe@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "david_russell_watson"

<liberty@>

> > wrote:
> > >
> > > *H1ek^wo- perfectly withstands careful analysis, with the
> > > irregularity of the Greek form being the sole exception.
> >
> > And the Greek forms in question, Attic etc. <hippos>, Epidaurian
> > <hikkos>, can be understood as borrowings from P-Illyrian and Q-
> > Illyrian respectively, if we assume that Illyro-Japygian

reflected

> PIE
> > *H1e- as *hi-, which accords well with the Messapic verb

<hipades>

> > being compounded with the equivalent of Greek <epi->.
> >
> > Douglas G. Kilday
> >
> - - - - - - - -
> Douglas,
>
> Do you have any other evidence for reflexes of *h1 in Illyro-

Japygian

> than ths two rather shaky ones? Your claims seems revolutionary for
> the laryngeal theory!

I have no other examples, and I will be the first to admit that my
hypothesis is shaky. <(h)ikkos> also occurs in Tarentine Greek and
is presumably borrowed from Messapic, but this adds nothing to the
theory that Messapic (and other Japygian) is a western offshoot of Q-
Illyrian.

I see nothing "revolutionary" about what I have proposed. Sanskrit
has /i/ where most non-Greek branches have /a/ from laryngeals, and
in particular /thi/ from *tH2. I see no a-priori reason to suppose
that a minor branch of IE could not have reflected *H1e- as hi-.

> So how could the word have shown up in P-illyrian according to you?

*hippas

> Finnish HEPO/HEVO- and HEVO-(I)NEN 'horse' comes from Middle Proto-
> Finnic *s^epo- (short -e-) later *xepo/xevo- > he-. It has no
> accepted loan or other etymology. I describe the problem also in
> message 57405. See also the thread behind message 46398 where some
> cognates are listed (you may ignore the reconstruction and link
> provided, which are nonsense).

I will look up the messages, and report back if I have any comments.

> The Finnic /-p-/ cannot be a substitute for a geminate -pp-. There

is

> some flexibility in what initial *s^- > *x- > h- may substitute
> because it was the only initial fricative available. Note though

that

> initial PIE *h1- has been substituted by /k-/ rather than /s^/ e.g.
> fi kesä 'summer' <= PIE *h1es-en- > Blt/Slv. *eseni- 'autumn' ~

*h1os-

> en-/-er- > Goth asans 'summer'.
> But then again who knows what *h1 had become in P-Illyric...
>
> At best terribly speculative. Probably not even possible, the
> geminate does not fit in any event, if it was geminate. And is

there

> additional proof for a laryngeal reflex in Illyric??

I am currently working on the problem of secondary aspiration in
Messapic. I suspect (but have no solid evidence at this time) that
this aspiration, as well as that in some Illyrian ethnonyms, reflects
one or more laryngeals. I expect to be involved with this problem
for several months, at a minimum. If my hunch turns out to be
wrong ... oh well.

As for the geminate, this in my view is one feature of Illyro-
Japygian, that inherited *k^w retained its length as a double
consonant, not being reduced to the phonological single consonant /k
{w}/ as in Italic and Celtic (and probably Greek and Macedonian).
Krahe refers the Pannonian names <Ecco> and <Eppo> here. If they are
hypocoristics based on compounds 'Horse-Whatever' and formed on the
same principle as Greek <Phillo:>, then we may be dealing with Q-
Pannonian *eko- and P-Pannonian *epo-, but then again, the Pannonian
forms could also be based on nouns with geminates, and I am ignorant
of these inscriptions generally. More work to do ...

DGK