Re: The progressive emergence of "Germanic"

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> The story, while it does not begin here, certainly
> passes through here:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age
>
> The earlier stage would be the Northern Corded Ware.
> And CW goes back to the area Heimskringla describes,
> but thousands of years before Mithradates...
>
> When do these early post-PIE dialects begin to
> approximate what will later be called the Germanic
> family? I don't know.
>
> But by the time of Jastorf the process would be well
> under way. By 500 BCE Jastorf approaches Thuringia,
> southward bound. They are stopped cold by the Celts,
> the Volcae in particular (with, as we know interesting
> subsequent lexical results). The Veneti (we may
> assume) are also tough cookies, until they are
> exhausted by resistance to constant Scythian raids
> (not in the history books but archaeologically
> verified). In the course of the 4th c. the Yastorfers
> move against the westernmost Veneti (Pomeranian c.)
> and assimilate them to their ways (=Gubin Yastorf).
> When the Scythian power migrates back to Central Asia
> (esp. in the period 325-300 BCE) the vacuum is filled
> by Celto-Jastorfian intrusions. A pretty grandiose
> "drang", just as impressive as the Suebian advance
> westward three centuries later. In the south, the
> Celts act pretty well alone. In the north they
> accompany the Jastorfers, sometimes leading them, but
> eventually they are linguistically absorbed.
> To me, Grimm and Verner are only specific stages in
> the development of this "Germanic" set of
> communities. But if Grimm is considered absolutely
> essential before one can speak of genuine Germanics,
> then I must say that I don't know when that happened
> universally.

I don't know why so much is made of the Grimm shift. Germanic has
plenty of oddities which sets it apart from other IE languages. The
-d- preterite. The fact that it has only one preterite. Two
inflections of the adjective, in which the weak one is formed
differently from the Balto-Slavic one. etc

> We could discuss the Negau helmets if you like.

No one says the inscriptions on the Negau helmet was made when the
helmet was made.

> Or when Karpat turned to Harfat (?)...

Harfaþ-. Kuhn points out that the o > a in (*Moginos >) Moenus > Main
must have taken place before any of the Germani had physical access to
the Main river.

> One issue which needs resolving is the relationship between the
> north of the Baltic and south of the Baltic "Germanic"
> communities. As of right now, I don't see how the
> south "Germanicised" the north,or vice versa.

If their relative isolation had lasted a few hundred years, they might
have still been mutually intelligible. We don't know, it seems only
the acrolect survived, unless the creolization of central Scandinavian
took place then among the lower folks.

> If the process of emergence was well advanced by the Bronze
> Age, the problem is less severe.

What is this problem of 'emergence'?

> So we can wait for the info about southern Sweden in the early CE
> before concluding.
>
> That's very roughly my scenario, very close to
> traditional views, though perhaps differing in minor
> particulars. The solution lies somewhere in this area
> of Elbe--central Scandinavia incl. so.Sweden--south
> shore of the Baltic to the Vistula. Odinist and
> Asiatic kookeries are ruled out.

Only you know what you mean by that. I'll write what I find relevant,
it's entirely up to you to determine what you find relevant. Ignore
the rest then.
But what am I going to make of this passage from Rüdiger Gebser: Das
Thüringer Königreich
http://www.hausarbeiten.de/faecher/hausarbeit/gek/19207.html
(now they want payment for it)
'Die Hermunduren glaubten, daß in den Hörselbergen bei Eisenach der
Sitz des "Wilden Heeres" sei. Von dort aus stürmten in rauhen Nächten
neben Donar (Thor) auch Gott Wodan und seine Gattin Hulda, welche die
in Walhalla lebenden Heerscharen anführten, durch das Hörselloch in
Richtung Thüringer Wald zur "Wilden Jagd".'
"The Hermunduri believed that the seat of the "wild army" was in the
Hörsel mountains. From there in rough nights along with Donar (Thor)
stormed also the god Wodan and hid wife Hulda leading the hosts
linving n Walhalla, through the Hörselloch in the direction of the
Thuringian Forest."?
Now is this admissible evidence that once someone led raids on
Thuringia from the Hörsel mountains? Or should it be disregarded
because it mentions Wotan?
What am I to make of the 'Harigasti teiwa' inscription on the Negau
helmet? "Harigasti god"? What is the proper interpretation of that?


Torsten