Re: The progressive emergence of "Germanic"

Thank you for the clarifying posting George,

The Nordic Bronze Age Culture indeed seems to be the only plausible
candidate for transmitting Paleo-Germanic lexical borrowings into
Baltic-Finnic.

I have dealt with these loan word strata in my posting
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/53965
The etymologies are further outlined at
http://koti.welho.com/jschalin/lexiconie.htm

I also found an older discussion on exactly the same issue in
postings:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/29527
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/29547

So four years back Piotr presented a dissenting view. In my view,
datings are always possible to stretch a little bit, but some of the
borrowings are so archaic phonologically that unless they are refuted
completely, thay presuppose distictly pre-german datings.

Jouppe

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> The story, while it does not begin here, certainly
> passes through here:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age
>
> The earlier stage would be the Northern Corded Ware.
> And CW goes back to the area Heimskringla describes,
> but thousands of years before Mithradates...
>
> When do these early post-PIE dialects begin to
> approximate what will later be called the Germanic
> family? I don't know.
>
> But by the time of Jastorf the process would be well
> under way. By 500 BCE Jastorf approaches Thuringia,
> southward bound. They are stopped cold by the Celts,
> the Volcae in particular (with, as we know interesting
> subsequent lexical results). The Veneti (we may
> assume) are also tough cookies, until they are
> exhausted by resistance to constant Scythian raids
> (not in the history books but archaeologically
> verified). In the course of the 4th c. the Yastorfers
> move against the westernmost Veneti (Pomeranian c.)
> and assimilate them to their ways (=Gubin Yastorf).
> When the Scythian power migrates back to Central Asia
> (esp. in the period 325-300 BCE) the vacuum is filled
> by Celto-Jastorfian intrusions. A pretty grandiose
> "drang", just as impressive as the Suebian advance
> westward three centuries later. In the south, the
> Celts act pretty well alone. In the north they
> accompany the Jastorfers, sometimes leading them, but
> eventually they are linguistically absorbed.
> To me, Grimm and Verner are only specific stages in
> the development of this "Germanic" set of
> communities. But if Grimm is considered absolutely
> essential before one can speak of genuine Germanics,
> then I must say that I don't know when that happened
> universally. We could discuss the Negau helmets if you
> like. Or when Karpat turned to Harfat (?)...One issue
> which needs resolving is the relationship between the
> north of the Baltic and south of the Baltic "Germanic"
> communities. As of right now, I don't see how the
> south "Germanicised" the north,or vice versa. If the
> process of emergence was well advanced by the Bronze
> Age, the problem is less severe. So we can wait for
> the info about southern Sweden in the early CE before
> concluding.
>
> That's very roughly my scenario, very close to
> traditional views, though perhaps differing in minor
> particulars. The solution lies somewhere in this area
> of Elbe--central Scandinavia incl. so.Sweden--south
> shore of the Baltic to the Vistula. Odinist and
> Asiatic kookeries are ruled out.
>
>
>
>
>
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