>No, it's more a 'great migration' or 'great event' kind of thing.
> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> > --- In email@example.com, george knysh
> > <gknysh@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > GK: Sorry, Torsten,but this won't do. You're
> > > > > retreating into generalities. The question "Why
> > > > > Przeworsk?", rather than, say, Gubin Yastorf, has not
> > > > > been answered. And the relationship between "Berig's
> > > > > people" and "Przeworsk" even less.
> > > >
> > > > Like this:
> > > > After Ariovistus' defeat, some of the upper layer went
> > > > northeast to Jastorf and influenced that culture to become
> > > > Elbe Germani.
> > >
> > > GK: Why would that culture not have been in
> > > process of transformation into Elbe Germanic prior to
> > > and independently of the Ariovistus saga? He was
> > > Suebian before coming to Gaul, left relatives in his
> > > homeland, and had nearly all the Semnones (most likely) on the
> > > banks of the Rhine (led by other leaders) ready to join him
> > > before his defeat.
> > Let's adopt that theory for a moment. We now have a causeless
> > effect, viz. cultural transition from Jastorf to Elbe
> > Germani,
> ****GK: It's as "causeless" as the transition from
> Wielbark to Chernyakhiv, or as the emergence of
> Jastorf itself. Have you a "great person" theory for
> cultural change?
> Just because we don't know the exact cause doesn't mean there wasn'tMy words exactly. So I proposed one.
> one (or many).
> We see the result, we don't know exactly what brought it about.Well, we can theorize.
> Some try to fill in the unbearable void with fantastic speculations(:=)))****
> > and an effectless cause, viz. the arrival of Harudes in ElbeWell, I don't. But then there were the 100 cantons of Suevi who never
> > Germani territory (Ariovistus' 24,000 homeless refugees,
> ****GK: How do you know there were that many left?
> Also: we unfortunately have no archaeological remainsAs to whether they were Przeworsk or Elbe Germani, you mean? Those
> to decide what their cultural identity was in 58 BCE.****
> > the presence of Harudes somewhere on the Elbe according to theGood question. I was about to ask you that? Someone pointed out that
> > Monumentum Ancyranum and Vellejus Paterculus
> > and later we find them in Jutland or Norway
> > (Hardsyssel, Hordaland).
> > Let's combine the two and make Occam happy.
> ****GK: And what is their archaeological equivalent on
> the Elbe, in Jutland, in Norway?****
> > >Of the 'Is too! - Is not!' category.
> > > > Later they went to Denmark and Southern Scandinavia from where
> > > > Berig, as part of that layer, went to the southern coast of
> > > > the Baltic.
> > > > That takes some proving.
> > >
> > > GK: At the moment that's just a verbal assertion
> > > which requires no other disproof than an equally
> > > verbal denial.
> > Usually you're more detailed than that, but I guess DanishI think there is at least an emerging consensus. But we might ask
> > archeology is not your strong suit? ;-)
> ****GK: No. But I know what questions to ask, what
> constitutes an acceptable answer and what does not
> > > Now, shoot away.
> > >
> > > GK: There seems to be no consensus amongst
> > > linguists as to the time frame of the initiation and
> > > spread of the Grimm shift.
> > > I could mention some pertinent facts about the spread ofYes?
> > > "Germanic" partly independent of this, partly related thereto
> > > (in the eyes of some at any rate). Anon.
> ****GK: Meanwhile see if you can come up with theDon't fret. I've ordered the relevant books (I hope) from the library
> noticed older evidence of the Swedish population
> expansion into their interior. And what is it that
> expanded earlier into Denmark? Elbe Germanic,or
> something else? (Since Przeworsk clearly won't