--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> Kuhn points out a couple of fun facts about
> > the Wend- and
> > Welsch- names:
> >
> > 1) They don't overlap.
> >
> > 2) There aren't any in central NWBlock territory,
> > Holland and south.
> >
> > Kuhn takes 1) to mean that Wend- and Welsch- designated the same
> > ehtnic group. I think they may be two groups.
>
> ****GK: I agree. Does he have any information about
> the use of "Welsch" or equivalents in Eastern Germany
> and further? I haven't checked this thoroughly, but I
> suspect that beyond the Visla the only "Welsh" would
> be Romans/Romanians/Moldavians (via Goths and Slavs).
> An isolated Celtic spot would be interesting if
> found.****
I've checked now, using Google Earth too. No Welsch- names on old
Slavic territory or in the vicinity, except for an isolated
Welschenkahl NW of Bayreuth.
However... , p. 421-422
'Von den weiteren westfälischen Welsch-Namen, die ich kenne, nenne ich
als ersten Welschen-beck, zu Belecke im oberen Möhnetal (n. Warstein)
gehörig und wahrscheinlich schon in einer Urkunde von 1222 bezeugt.
Diese schreibt zwar bona in Belskenbike, und eine offenbar sehr
schlechte Abschrift oder zweite Ausfertigung sogar Belsenbilc (Westf.
UB. 4, S. 70, und 7, S. 93 und 1274), doch liegt wohl nur ein
leichtverständlicher Schreibfehler vor: zwischen den b- von bona und
-bike ist auch in Welsken- B- geschrieben. Auch die zwei B- des kurz
darauf genannten B. de Buren können dem Schreiber schon im Ohr
geklungen haben. Da späterhin das Gut zudem nur Welschen-beck heißt
und Belsken- kaum zu erklären ist, so dürfen wir dies Zeugnis doch
wohl für Welsch- in Anspruch nehmen. Es ist dann der am frühesten
genannte Welsch-Ortsname in Norddeutschland.'
"Of the further Welsch- names that I know, I'll mention as the first
Welschen-beck, belonging to Belecke in the upper river Möhne valley
(north of Warstein) and probably mentioned already in a document from
1222. This actually writes 'bona in Belskenbike', and an apparently
very bad copy or second version even has 'Belsenbilc' ..., but this is
most likely an understandable copying error: between the b-'s of
'bona' and '-bike' another B- has been written in Welsken-. Also the
two B-'s of the B. de Buren named shortly after might have sounded in
the scribe's ear. Since the estate later is only called Welschen-beck
and it is hardly possible to explain Belsken-, we should be able to
claim this evidence for Welsch-. It is then the earliest mentioned
Welsch- name in Germany."
But perhaps there is another explanation for the early Belsken-/Belsen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcae
footnote 2: 'George Long, in editing the Gallic Wars, noted that some
manuscripts have Volgae and some Bolgae [in DBG 6.24, about the Volcae].'
In other words, the Welsk- names may be Belsk- names and the people
they refer to may have been Belgae, and the NWBlock-people haveen
called so. Note above that Bels(k)en-bilk belongs to the town Belecke.
So I checked wrt Belg-/Bels- names but many of them are in old Slavic
territory? I don't know how much we can interpret into this.
The infamous Bergen-Belsen is 10km north of the Aller, on which is
situates a Winsen (< *Wint-sken ?) and 5km downstream a Jeversen;
similarly a Dohnsen, Weesen, Katensen and Poitzen within a 10km
radius; on may assume a development (*´-sken >) *`-schen > ´-sen, so
that Belsen might have been *Bel(k)sken.
Torsten