Re: Mitanni and Matsya

----- Original Message -----
From: "david_russell_watson" <liberty@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 4:50 PM
Subject: [tied] Re: Mitanni and Matsya


--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@...>
wrote:
>
> Kishore,
>
> my other major field of interest is ancient religions.
>
> The 'wide one' correlates nicely with a 'sea-god'.
>
> Usually, the 'sea-god' is associated with the planet Venus.

Certain universals have been demonstrated true about the
manner in which languages evolve, the manner in which
words are most likely to transform when borrowed by one
language from another, or about the most natural kinds
of phonological systems for human languages, and a great
many others besides, as most of us here well know.

However there are no corresponding universals or rules
recognized for the evolution of religious or mythological
systems, and so one can't say that sea gods are "usually"
associated with the planet Venus. All this means when
you say it, Patrick, is that you have a few such cases in
mind, but not that it constitutes a demonstrated natural
tendency or anything of the like.

***

That is simply not true.

I have traced the connections between planets and earthly functions in a
great many cultures, and have consistently found these associations where
syncretism has not blurred them.

I can say that 'sea-gods/goddesses' are consistently associated with the
planet Venus, because that is what I have found.

Now, David, you can easily prove me wrong by producing a deity of the sea
which is associated with a planet other than Venus. Can you do it?

***

> So, he is not really a 'sky-god'; for the 'weather-god', however,
> is a post that usually belongs to gods associated with the planet
> Jupiter, the (next) brightest planet in the sky.

Neither is the post of weather god a universal concept with
such set of predicable correlates.

***

Oh, but it is.

***


> Cosmic order and justice is usually the province of a 'sun-
> god'.

This is likewise a personal observation of yours only, of
some particular cases which you've improperly generalized.

***

Well, again, you can easily prove me wrong by showing us a god of justice
and order that is not associated with the sun. Can you do it?

***
> I would not be surprised if Ouranus were not the same god at
> origin. I think Dumézil thought so but I am not sure. I do
> think this etymology is not in favor at the moment, however.

No, it isn't in favor any more.

***

Neither are balanced budgets but their value for fiscal sanity has remained
unchanged.

***

> I think speculation about Hurrian or any non-IE origins is
> unnecessary if we accept *weru- as the source. The 'one who
> confines' just does not make any sense for a 'sea-god'; and
> I propose that is what Varuna was _originally_.

Neither is any speculation about a Hurrian source necessary
if we simply accept the best etymology that we already have,
which is the one based upon vr- 'enclose, confine, restrict'.

***

I previously asked you to explain the _u_ in Varuna.

Why do you not do so now?


***

Varuna is well known in the Vedas as the god who established
the world by his act of creating its boundaries. He's also
strongly defined, in concert with Mitra, as a god overseeing
and enforcing the rules and morals of human society, and thus
he sets and maintains boundaries in that sphere too.

***

Syncretism has blurred many a god's original functions.

In Egypt, Osiris-Re blended the functions of Re, probably a real sky-god,
and Osiris, a god associated with morning Venus appearances at the earliest
date. This changed the nature of Osiris substantially but he always remained
a god of renewed life, another function of morning Venus gods.


Mitra is, contra Wiki, a sun-god almost certainly. Would the Greek and
Romans not have known?

***



As Dan has already pointed out, the Vedas even specifically
state for us that Varuna 'pra vrnoti'. One seldom gets any
better confirmation of an etymology than that.

***

Some Indians, like many fools today, thought mere puns and casual
resemblances indicated deeper relationships.

Yes, it is an etymology: Volksetymologie, useless to anyone serious.


***


> I believe the Hebrew Yahu is one such sky-god who is the exception
> to the rule.

As I say, there is no such rule, and so there's no real need
to claim an exception.

David

***

The Hebrews probably adopted Yahu while in Egypt; the Egyptian god
corresponding is <Sw>, which also reads <*Jw> in some of its meanings, like
'empty, hollow' (PIE Pokorny's 1.*eu-).

Again, to prove me wrong, show us a sky-god (not a weather-god) that is
supreme in a pantheon.

Can you do it?

I will be interested to see if you can respond to any of the challenges I
have given you.


Patrick

***