Re: Gemination in Celtic

From: fournet.arnaud
Message: 56491
Date: 2008-04-03

----- Original Message -----
From: Anders R. Joergensen
>
> I never talked about H2-g
> Maybe some inadequate examples made you think
> that we were discussing that kind of examples.

Yes, since I depart from a standard PIE system, that may easily
happen.
==========
May I know why ?
Arnaud

==========
>
> Basically, my proposal is that
> roots that display alternations like
> Celtic and Osco-Umbrian -CC- unvoiced
> LAtin -C- unvoiced
> Others -g- voiced
>
> Should be reconstructed as -?-C-
> that is to say : glottal stop + unvoiced consonant.
>

But I think we still have to see one convincing example of this
correspondence, let alone enough to posit a new H phoneme.

==============
*bhel-H2-k "beam"

Gaulish bala:kon
Welsh balog < balokk- ?
SKrt bhur-i-jau < -H-g-
Greek phalan-g-s
Latin ful-c-io

Isn't this clear ?

Arnaud

=============

So it impossible to find counter-examples to your law? Or what would
a counter-example look like?

Whenever we have a direct reflex of *-h2+k- in Eastern IE it's a
different kind of *h2, right? Or whenever we have *-h2g- in all
branches, it's just underlying *-h2g-. Aren't you afraid of a
circular argument here?

And isn't the lack of really good positive examples of the law
something of a peculiarity?

>
> Then why use Ir. capall ~ Lat. caballus?
> Anders
>
> ============
>
> I think the latin word is a borrowing from eastern PIE.
> But the Irish word is old enough
> to exhibit the change ?-p- > pp.

So PCelt. had a *pp, but no *p? (this must already have become */p\/,
voiceless bilabial fricative). Note that the lack of a phoneme /p/
continued until very late in Irish, cf. Latin loanwords with p > *kW
> OIr. c.

Anders

===========
There is a chain of changes

Inherited -tt- > Celtic -ss- > -s-
Inherited -?-C > Celtic -CC- > -C-
Inherited simple -c- > Celtic -H-

-?p- > pp > p
-p- > F > zéro

Where's the problem ?

LAtin LWs like clan < planta
are probably influenced by the fact
Irish speakers knew Oirl -c- = Welsh -p-
So they applied this equivalence to LAtin words.
I don't think you can say that p > k directly.

Arnaud

============