Re: Celtic and Germanic Poland before the Slavs

--- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>
> >(GK) I feel certain that the specifics you are
> interested in are
> > discussed in the books the article constantly
> refers to, with
> > appropriate further citations. Perhaps they are
> > available in your librarie(s). Many Polish
> editions
> > have German and English summaries.
>
> I have a hunch they don't.

****GK: We're obviously talking about different things
here. I said German and English summaries. They exist
in a couple of recent Polish archaeological books I
have here. I suppose the Poles can read German and
would report their German colleagues' statements about
Scandinavian research these have read in the original
language correctly and in proper German or English?
Otherwise I have no idea as to what your concern
mightbe.****

Scandinavian languages is

> not the Poles'
> strong side. Most Germans working on prehistory had
> an infatuation
> with Scandinavian stuff and many taught themselves
> the language(s).


>
> > >
> > > 2) It is tempting to equate non-IE(?) Chatti
> with
> > > the Cotini/Púchov
> > > mixed culture. Are there reasons one shouldn't?
> >
> > GK: Well, two off the top: different arch.
> > cultures, different peoples acc. to Tacitus.
>
> How different archaeologically? Kuhn etc seem to
> think the Chatti were
> something pre-Germanic,

****GK: Don't Hachmann or Pestel include them in the
"Elbe-Germanic" 1rst c AD archaeological area?****

and acc. to Tacitus, the

> Cotini in Moravia
> were Celtic, not Germanic.

****GK: While the Chatti were Germanic in his
time.****

>
>
> > > 3) It's further tempting to connect
> Vandili/Vendsyssel/Veneti in
> > > Gaul: the Limfjord south of Vendsyssel was the
> preferred
> > > sailing route to the Baltic, not until Hansa
> Ummelandsfarer with
> > > large cogs did shipping take the dangerous route
> north of Skagen.
> >
> > GK: Resist the temptation.
>
> It is common lore in Danish archaeology that there
> is a archaeological
> connection between vendsyssel and the mouth of the
> Oder.

****GK: I don't see what the problem would be. It
seems quite plausible to argue that the Vandals had
Scandinavian connections (as much as the Goths or
Burgundians)****

That's the

> kind of blind spot wrt. Scandinavia I was referring
> to. That makes me
> suspicious of whether your denial of a connection
> with the Veneti of
> Gaul is on equally shaky ground.

****GK: I'm not denying anything except a concern
about some possible wild conclusions on your
part.(:=))) Hubert, for instance, and many others,
think there mightwell be a connectionbetween all of
these Vend- Vand- Venet- names which goes back to
Bronze Age movements or earlier. But one to two
thousand years later, the names could have referred to
different ethno-cultural and linguistic realities. The
Wends were not Vandals, and the Vandals were not
Veneti.****

>
>
> > > 4) 'The evolution of the power structure within
> the Germanic
> > > societies in Poland and elsewhere can be traced
> to some degree
> > > by examining the "princely" graves - burials of
> chiefs, and even
> > > hereditary princes, as the consolidation of
> power progressed.
> > > Those appeaR from the beginning of the Common
> Era and are located
> > > away from ordinary cemeteries, singly or in
> small groups. The
> > > bodies were inhumed in wooden coffins and
> covered with kurgans, or
> > > interred in wooden or stone chambers.

****GK: So there was "internal" variety.***

> > > Luxurious Roman-made gifts and fancy barbarian
> emulations ... ,
> > > but not weapons, were placed in the graves. 1st
> and 2nd century
> > > burials of this type, occurring all the way from
> Jutland to
> > > Lesser Poland, are referred to as princely
> graves Lubieszewo type,
> > > after Lubieszewo, Gryfice County in western
> Pomerania, where six
> > > such burials were found.'
> > >
> > > Here's the question that *you* don't like: where
> does this sudden
> > > homogeneous upper class come from? Why does it
> use inhumation, not
> > > cremation, as was the custom before?

****GK: The same question could be asked with respect
to the Celltic upper class as Hallstatt made way for
La Tene, and inhumations replaced cremations. Or in
many other similar contexts. In the Celtic one,no one
assumes "alien infiltration". I don't think the
Antiquity article does for the Germanic material.****

Is it

> similar to any other
> > > culture in the neighborhood?
> >
> > ****GK: It would be helpful to relate these graves
> to specific
> > Germanic populations.
>
> I think the text says, which I've read elsewhere
> too, that you can't.

****GK: The text doesn't say that.****

> It's a new and homogenous upper class, appearing
> suddenly in an until
> then egalitarian culture.

****GK: Like the Scythian royal barrows of the VIth c.
BCE****

>
> > Presumably more information would be available in
> the books
> > mentioned.
>
> You don't know. OK.
>
> > All I get from the article is that these W.
> Pomeranian graves are
> > associated with a group which arrived ca. 30 CE
> from from Ru/"/gen
> > to replace the local Oksywie culture which had
> earlier replaced the
> > Jastorf culture, and that it was itself replaced
> by another
> > group in the 3rd.c.****
>
> It's not a phenomenon specific to the Wielbark
> culture.

****GK: It's the Ruegen burials that give the
phenomenon its name.There is nothing miraculous about
"chiefs" being given unusually specific and rich
burials. Happens all the time.And is subject to change
with fashion. These particular burials (with their
internal differences) only last about 100 years and
are then replaced by something else.****

>
>
> > >
> > > 5) 'Related to the Przeworsk culture was the
> Wietrzno-Solina type,
> > > a cultural unit with Celtic and then Dacian
> elements, situated
> > > within the more eastern part of the Beskids
> range (San River
> > > basin) during the 100-250 CE period[24][25].'
> > >
> > > Saxo's Ruthenians?
> >
> > GK: Who knows? In any case some of Ptolemy's
> > tribal names might be consulted
>
> If it is, one might have to read Saxo's prehistoric
> stuff from that
> perspective.
>
>
> Torsten


>
>
>

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