--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> This
> >
> http://www.novaroma.de/nr/provincia/karten/limes2.htm
> > implies the last version was built under Antoninus Pius.
> > BTW, check the color codes and the corresponding periods of the
> > various castella; it seems there are traces of Drusus' castella
> > too in the Wetterau (it's easier to make that out by the
> > numbers than by the colors).
>
> ****GK: Perhaps n. 8 and 9 near Wetzlar on the Lan.
> Maybe ns. 5,6,7 near Friedberg.****
>
>
> I'll check what Peschel has to say.
>
> ****GK: Please do. Also: see if there's anything more
> precise about the extent and end of Przeworsk in
> Thuringia.****
> >
Digression:
From Peschel, note 195
'Gegenüber seinen früheren Darlegungen (1956/57b), die den
Arbeitsbegriff "Ostgermanen" gelten lassen und in denen bündig von
"eingewanderten Ostgermanen" (S. 64) die Rede ist, rückt R. Hachmanns
neueste Argumentation die Dinge merkwürdig ins Zwielicht, vgl. 1970,
S. 303 f. gegen S. 242: während es hier, wo es um die oben umrissene
Fernwirkung geht, noch immer heißt: "schon früh sind in
Mitteldeutschland und in der Wetterau Grab- und Siedlungsfunde
'ostgermanischen' Charakters aufgefallen", die, so weiter, einem
"Bevölkerungszustrom" ihre Existenz verdanken, liest man dagegen dort,
"daß es auch keine archäologische 'ostgermanische' Gruppe gibt", da,
dies als Begründung, im Osten bekanntlich eine Untergliederung möglich
sei. Es kann jedoch jetzt und ebensowenig für die römische Kaiserzeit
bestritten werden, daß die Hauptglieder, die R. Hachmann hier im Auge
hat - Przeworsk- und Oksywiekultur , ihrerseits enger zusammengehören
als nur eines von ihnen mit den archäologischen Erscheinungen an Elbe
und Saale.'
"In contrast to his earlier expositions [R.Hachmann: Ostgermanische
Funde der Spätlatènezeit in Mittel- und Westdeutschland. Archaeologia
Geographica 5/6, p. 5568] which use the provisional concept of 'East
Germani' and in which he refers to 'immigrated East Germani', R.
Hachmann's most recent line of argument moves the matter into a
strange half-light, cf [R. Hachmann: Die Goten und Skandinavien.
Berlin], p 303 against p. 242: whereas in the latter, when referring
to the long distance effets sketched above, he still states: "already
early the grave and settlement finds of East Germanic character were
noticed", one reads in the former "that also there exists no
archaeological 'East Germanic'", since, as he reasons, it is
well-known that a subdivision can be made in the East. However, it
can't be disputed, neither for now nor for Roman Imperial times the
key elements which R. Hachmann is referring to here - Przeworsk and
Oksywie culture - belong more closely together than any of them with
the archaeological phenomena on the Elbe and Saale rivers."
That should clear up some of your earlier questions.
To get back to your question: I can't find anyting about the end of
the Wetterau incursion in Peschel.
The only reference I've been able to find to the end of the Wetterau
Przeworsk is from Hachmann, here:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/50599
As for the Thuringian Przeworsk culture:
Immediately north of the new temporary Augustean Limes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_Germanicus
http://www.novaroma.de/nr/provincia/karten/limes2.htm
lived the Chatti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatti
the target of Roman incursions
http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/histories.4.iv.html
Kuhn makes much of the geminated -tt- in their name and that of their
capital Mattium. PIE -tt- had become -ss- in Celtic, Italic and mostly
that, but occasionally -st- in Germanic, so the -tt- of Chatti and
Mattium must have some other origin. Traditionally it would be derived
by Kluge's law from -tn-, but Kuhn notes the alternation -ss-/-tt- in
Germanic *hatt- "hat" / Latin cassis "helmet"
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/50267
etc etc
but Kuhn also points out the Celtic Tricasses, cf. for the last
element of the name
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viducasses
(Tricastini is also found in the sources)
the Chattuari, alternatively Chasuari
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chattuarii
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chasuarii
on the last element here, vf Ripuarii, inhabitants on the Rhine
If we assume that the source of the word, whichever it was, could
alternate
*katt-/*kant-/*ka:t-/*kass-/*kans-/*ka:s-
in the style of Schrijver's language of geminates
we could include names as
Canninefates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cananefates
Cassius Dio's name for the Chatti, Kenni ('a Celtic tribe')
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatti
the modern name Hessen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesse
which, in spite of the article, can't be a straight High German
continuation of Chatti, which would give *Hetzen
nor can the names of the city of Kassel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassel
be derived from Latin Castella
Kuhn: "Das römeische Kriegswesen im germanischen Wortschatz"
' Ich kam deshalb schon vor langem auf die Vermutung, die erste, sich
nur ganz unklar abzeichnende germanische Hundertschaftsgliederung
könnte mit der Aufstellung von Reiterverbänden zusammengehangen haben.
Mich bestärkte darin das centeni ex singulis pagis sunt, idque ipsum
inter suos vocantur (Germ. Kap. 6), das Tacitus zwar nicht von den
Reitern selbst, sondern von den ihnen zugeteilten Fußkämpfern sagt.
Aber dahinter wird doch stehen, daß jeder pagus eine Schwadron von 100
Reitern mitsamt der festgesetzten Zahl von Begleitmannschaften zu
Fuß zu stellen hatte, die dann auch Hundertschaften hießen. Es gibt
ja auch noch manches andre, das auf ein sehr hohes Alter germanischer
Hundertschaften deutet, und der Krieg ist nun einmal der Vater aller
Dinge. Mir scheint hier namentlich den ostniederländischen
Landschaftsnamen Twi:-hanti und *Þri:-hanti (Twente und Drente) eine
große Bedeutung zuzukommen. Sie werden den schwedischen
Ti-(h)unda-land (Zehnhundertland) usw. nahverwandt sein, jedoch mit
einer Entwicklung von idg. *km.tom ,hundert', welche die
nichtgermanische Zwischenstufe *kant- voraussetzt, dem kelt. *kantom
gleich, jedoch mit der späten germanischen Verschiebung des Anlauts-k-
zu h- ... .'
"Therefore already early the idea occurred to me that the indistinctly
appearing Germanic organizaton by Hundertschaften [groups of hundred]
might have to do with the deployment of cavalry units. I was
strengthened in this belief by 'centeni ex singulis pagis sunt, idque
ipsum inter suos vocantur' (Germ. chap. 6), although Tacitus does not
speak here of the men of the cavalry themselves, but of the men of the
infantry assigned to them. But behind that must be a fact that every
pagus should supply a squadron of 100 cavalry with the settled number
of accompanying infantry, which was then called a Hundertschaft. After
all there is so much else pointing to a high age of the Germanic
Hundertschaften and war is after all the father of all things. It
seems to me in particular the names of the Eastern Netherlands region
names Twi:-hanti und *Þri:-hanti (Twente und Drente) deserve to be
recognized as important. They would be closely related to the Swedish
Ti-(h)unda-land (ten hundred land), but with a development from PIE
*km.tom "hundred" which presupposes the non-Germanic intermediate
stage *kant-, equal to the Celtic *kantom, but with the late Gewrmanic
sshift from anlaut k- to h-."
Other possible cognates:
Germanic *xanso:- "community of people" (in whichever sense)
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/24979
BTW Finnish kansa "people" is cognate to the Estonian suffix -ga of
the recent comitative ("with") case, cf. ON hos prep. "at, chez".
Perhaps also NWBlock Dutch kant, German Kante "edge" (Celtic *kant-
Engl. Kent), if the derivation is not from the number hundred, but
from the cavalry protecting the flanks of the infantry (cf. Dutch
vierkant "rectangle")? NWBlock *kant-ja:- > NWGerm. *xanso:-?
Torsten