From: fournet.arnaud
Message: 55550
Date: 2008-03-20
----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Ryan
> ==========
> There is no irreducible truth in phonology.
> Voice makes sense for those particular phonemes
> which contrast with unvoiced phonemes.
> In the case of voice-neutral phonemes
> it just means nothing.
> Arnaud
> ============
***
But you are displaying a philosophic rather than a scientific mindset.
Phonemes are actual physical realizations, speech sounds. They can be
exactly, objectively described.
A sound cannot both be /l/ and not be /l/.
Therefore, there are no voice-neutral phonemes.
Patrick
==============
No,
From what you are explaining,
you are making it clear
that you don't understand what
Structuralist phonology is about
and what a phoneme is.
A phoneme is an abstract unit of a system,
it is embodied in real speech sounds
but it *does not* equate with these speech sounds.
Trubetzkoy : Principes de phonologie 1962 :
"aucun de ces sons ne peut être considéré
simplement comme un phonème.
Mais dans la mesure où l'un de ces sons contient
les particularités phonologiquement pertinentes
d'un phonème déterminé, il peut être considéré
comme une réalisation de ce phonème" p39
You are using the term "phoneme" is a pre-1928 meaning
that was about the same as "speech sound" before
the creation of phonology in La Haye in 1928.
It's quite clear that you cannot understand what
Laryngeals are about, if you don't understand
what a phoneme is.
It's like trying to extract square roots
when you can't tell 1 from 2 and 3.
Arnaud
==============
***
'continent' is one thing; 'Continent' in current English usage is the
continent, Europe.
When the British talk about taking a Continental holiday, they do not mean
Australia.
***
I didn't know Americans say that too.
Arnaud
=============
> H1 H2 and H3 primarily differentiate
> because H1 colors *e into *e, H2 colors into *a
> and H3 colors into *o.
> After that primary branching,
> there are still plenty of reasons why
> any set of H1 phonemes, or H2 phonemes, or H3
> are not the same, including voice and place of articulation.
>
> Arnaud
> ==============
***
Then let us state it clearly:
there are three phones called 'laryngeals': {H1], [H2], and [H3];
Patrick
============
**** NO *****
There 3 ***CLASSES*** of proto-phonemes
each of which classes is identified by one primary feature
The H1 class is : any H1.n displays : H1e > e ; eH1 = e:
Probably a class with two phonemes */x/ and */H/
The H2 class is : any H2.n displays : H1e > a ; eH2 = a:
A class with at least 8 phonemes :
? &(ayin) z dz s? ts? H dh?
The H3 class is : any H3.n displays : H3e > o ; eH3 = o:
At least two phonemes ?w and m?
and probably all H1 and H2 labialized work as H3.
It's unclear for H1 class but fairly clair for H2.
Arnaud
===============
***
Frankly, I think I understand it far better than you do, and am more precise
in communcating about it.
I do not believe I am confusing anything although at 3 AM in the morning
with four dogs and a cat to distract me, occasionally accidents happen.
I repeat: English and French [l] include two major phonemes: voiced /l/ and
voiceless /L/.
Now I understand. You think 'voice-neutral' phone means the phone [l]
tolerates at least two phonemes: those above.
So what?
==============
It seems that a spark of understanding happened.
I reword your last sentence :
The phoneme /l/ admits two realizations [l] and [l.]
according to contexts (in French language)
And in English the situation is slightly more complex
as you have dark [l~] in some contexts.
Arnaud
***
You are the one who needs to learn, Arnaud.
Evidently, 'relative contrastive voice' differentiates between phones in a
given language that do or do not comprise voiced and voiceless phonemes.
Patrick
***
=============
I'm afraid you have not understood *yet*
that I am better than you.
And you should be aware I am currently
providing you with a free course in phonology
even though this is ruining your night.
I reword your last sentence :
'relative contrastive voice' *can only* differentiate between phoneMEs in a
given language that *does* comprise voiced and voiceless phonemes.
(or voiced as opposed to glottalized or aspirated).
Like English or French (or ShangHai dialect)
Unlike Mandarin dialect (contrast is aspirated non aspirated)
Arnaud
===============