Re: Latin -idus as from dH- too => and the accent of Grk. *dHugh2ter

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
<miguelc@...> wrote:

>
> On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:01:52 -0000, "alexandru_mg3"
> <alexandru_mg3@...> wrote:
>
> >Miguel, seems that you didn't understand even now what I have

really

> >tried to transmit you:
> >
> >The fact that you really didn't understand anything regarding

Greek

> >accentuation when you wrote:
> > "unattested <thúgate:r> becomes attested <thugáte:r> by the

law

> >of limitation"
> >
> >I would say finally ->this is not a problem....
> >
> >But in addition it was still you that showed the "idiots" on the
> >other side
> >
> >I would say finally ->this is really a problem.
> >
> >Usually I never said directly such things till the other side

didn't

> >create problems...
> >
> >SO NOW I FEEL OBLIGED TO EXPLAIN YOU DIRECTLY WHERE YOU DIDN'T
> >UNDERSTAND :
> >
> > A) The Greek rythmic rules trigger the apparition of the long
> >vowels (etc...) by preserving the original accentuation
>
> What a load of crap.
>
> >AND NOT
> >
> > B) The Long Vowels (or other heavy clusters) triger the change

of

> >the accentuation (=> As you have wrongly understood)
>
> As everybody but you has understood.
>
> >Please read twice the text above because is a very important

remark.

> >
> >Explanation for you:
> >a) The PIE original accent of the Vocative WAS ON THE FIRST

SYLLABLE

> >(->see In Skt. -> see in Grk.)
>
> Yes.
>
> > As result, you can see that the Greek accent is also there and

due

> >to the rythmic rules of Greek the ORIGINAR final short vowel has
> >remained unchanged.
>
> Of course.
>
> >b) Next the original accent of the basic form WAS ON THE LAST
> >SYLLABLE
>
> *dhug&2té:r, yes.
>
> >=> if the vocative accentual pattern would have been
> >influenced the basic form => in this case the vocative form would
> >have been adopted as it it: /accent on the original vowel and

short

> >vowel at the end/ => that is not the case
>
> Yes it is: Pre-Greek *thúgate:r.
>
> >c) So the accent on the second syllable IS The ORIGINAL GREEK ONE

(a

> >Proto-Greek one < a PIE dialectal one (very probable due to
> >aspiration)) => and only next as a result the long vowel appeared

on

> >the last syllable to preserve the rythmic rules.
> >
> >e) Take Now: whatever Greek word you like on the most conservative
> >family
> >
> > 'father' -> *ph2te'r
> > 'mother' -> *me'h2ter
> >vocative of 'daughter' -> *dHu'gh2ter
> >
> >Note:
> >'Long' IE forms *ph2te':r/*me'h2te:r apparently fit also -> but is
> >not at all necessary to be reconstructed for Greek based on what I
> >showed you (they are usually reconstructed with long e:, only

because

> >each one see a long e: there) => This is an important

conclusion

> >too.
>
> Indeed: *p&2té:r, *méh2te:r and *dhug&2té:r are
> reconstructed with long vowels because "each one see a long
> e: there". We see it in Greek (thugáte:r), we see it in
> Sanskrit (duhitá:), we see it in Avestan (duGða:), we see it
> in Gothic (dauhtar, not *dauhtr), in Balto-Slavic (dukte:~,
> *dUktí), in Tocharian (tka:cer, not *tka:cär), etc.
>
> >So you will see that the GREEK PRESERVED THE ORIGINAL PIE
> >ACCENTUATION
> >
> > pate':r
> > ma':te:r
> > [vocative] tHu'gater
> >
> >and the Rythmic rules ensured NEXT by Changing (usually) the

Length

> >of the final vowel, only if necessary
> >
> > pat /e':/ r => /e': -> e'e/
> > ma':t /e:/ r
> > [vocative] tHu'gater => no need to change something
>
> What "necessity" is there to lengthen the vowel in +patér or
> +mé:ter? Was the vowel lengthened in sophós or in thêres? I
> suggest you learn some Greek.
>
> >So I hope is clear now that
> >
> >tHuga'te:r
> >
> >preserved also the Pre/Proto-Greek original accent
> >
> >*dHug(H)a'ter
>
> Right.
>
> So how do you explain the accusative thugatéra?
>
> >by changing the length of the final vowel too
> > *tHuga't /e:/ r
> >
> >So the accent on the second syllable *dHug(H)a'ter is NOT A GREEK
> >Evolution because Greek preserved the accent with ANY PRICE
>
> As in a typical case such as ánthro:pos, ánthro:pon,
> anthró:pou, anthró:po:i; ánthro:poi, anthró:pous,
> anthró:po:n, anthró:pois.
>
> >I hope that you understand also better now why we have long vowels

in

> >all these Greek forms (My Answer for you: in order to preserve the
> >original accentuation and to respect the rythmic rules too -> so

no

> >need for -te:r in place of -ter for Greek)
> >
> >
> >Finally SO MIGUEL => When I said that you didn't understand the

rule

> >that you quoted (I indicated: 'vocative accent first syllable and
> >final short vowel' ; 'accent second syllable and final long vowel'
> >and also 'putting a .pdf with the rules there': I have really

asked

> >you 'to start to apply the rules to see your mistake')
> >=> so I thought that you will really take a closer look on this
> >=> that wasn't the case
>
> I don't think I could really have been expected to
> anticipate something as profoundly pathetic as this.
>
>
> =======================
> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
> miguelc@...

I cannot lose my time to explain you more than I did => your answer
show again that you are faraway to understand the Greek accentuation
I) Regarding Greek forms: the .pdf that I sent you resume all
your 'cases' -> you need to read it
You even don't know what is the domain of applicability of this rule


II) Regarding PIE long vowels you have mixed case forms willingly
You have ignore willingly Latin and Other Languages too etc...

Take the Nominative of dHugh2ter Language By language if you want
to discuss

Marius
Marius