Re: Latin -idus as from dH- too => and the accent of Grk. *dHugh2ter

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:01:52 -0000, "alexandru_mg3"
<alexandru_mg3@...> wrote:

>Miguel, seems that you didn't understand even now what I have really
>tried to transmit you:
>
>The fact that you really didn't understand anything regarding Greek
>accentuation when you wrote:
> "unattested <thúgate:r> becomes attested <thugáte:r> by the law
>of limitation"
>
>I would say finally ->this is not a problem....
>
>But in addition it was still you that showed the "idiots" on the
>other side
>
>I would say finally ->this is really a problem.
>
>Usually I never said directly such things till the other side didn't
>create problems...
>
>SO NOW I FEEL OBLIGED TO EXPLAIN YOU DIRECTLY WHERE YOU DIDN'T
>UNDERSTAND :
>
> A) The Greek rythmic rules trigger the apparition of the long
>vowels (etc...) by preserving the original accentuation

What a load of crap.

>AND NOT
>
> B) The Long Vowels (or other heavy clusters) triger the change of
>the accentuation (=> As you have wrongly understood)

As everybody but you has understood.

>Please read twice the text above because is a very important remark.
>
>Explanation for you:
>a) The PIE original accent of the Vocative WAS ON THE FIRST SYLLABLE
>(->see In Skt. -> see in Grk.)

Yes.

> As result, you can see that the Greek accent is also there and due
>to the rythmic rules of Greek the ORIGINAR final short vowel has
>remained unchanged.

Of course.

>b) Next the original accent of the basic form WAS ON THE LAST
>SYLLABLE

*dhug&2té:r, yes.

>=> if the vocative accentual pattern would have been
>influenced the basic form => in this case the vocative form would
>have been adopted as it it: /accent on the original vowel and short
>vowel at the end/ => that is not the case

Yes it is: Pre-Greek *thúgate:r.

>c) So the accent on the second syllable IS The ORIGINAL GREEK ONE (a
>Proto-Greek one < a PIE dialectal one (very probable due to
>aspiration)) => and only next as a result the long vowel appeared on
>the last syllable to preserve the rythmic rules.
>
>e) Take Now: whatever Greek word you like on the most conservative
>family
>
> 'father' -> *ph2te'r
> 'mother' -> *me'h2ter
>vocative of 'daughter' -> *dHu'gh2ter
>
>Note:
>'Long' IE forms *ph2te':r/*me'h2te:r apparently fit also -> but is
>not at all necessary to be reconstructed for Greek based on what I
>showed you (they are usually reconstructed with long e:, only because
>each one see a long e: there) => This is an important conclusion
>too.

Indeed: *p&2té:r, *méh2te:r and *dhug&2té:r are
reconstructed with long vowels because "each one see a long
e: there". We see it in Greek (thugáte:r), we see it in
Sanskrit (duhitá:), we see it in Avestan (duGða:), we see it
in Gothic (dauhtar, not *dauhtr), in Balto-Slavic (dukte:~,
*dUktí), in Tocharian (tka:cer, not *tka:cär), etc.

>So you will see that the GREEK PRESERVED THE ORIGINAL PIE
>ACCENTUATION
>
> pate':r
> ma':te:r
> [vocative] tHu'gater
>
>and the Rythmic rules ensured NEXT by Changing (usually) the Length
>of the final vowel, only if necessary
>
> pat /e':/ r => /e': -> e'e/
> ma':t /e:/ r
> [vocative] tHu'gater => no need to change something

What "necessity" is there to lengthen the vowel in +patér or
+mé:ter? Was the vowel lengthened in sophós or in thêres? I
suggest you learn some Greek.

>So I hope is clear now that
>
>tHuga'te:r
>
>preserved also the Pre/Proto-Greek original accent
>
>*dHug(H)a'ter

Right.

So how do you explain the accusative thugatéra?

>by changing the length of the final vowel too
> *tHuga't /e:/ r
>
>So the accent on the second syllable *dHug(H)a'ter is NOT A GREEK
>Evolution because Greek preserved the accent with ANY PRICE

As in a typical case such as ánthro:pos, ánthro:pon,
anthró:pou, anthró:po:i; ánthro:poi, anthró:pous,
anthró:po:n, anthró:pois.

>I hope that you understand also better now why we have long vowels in
>all these Greek forms (My Answer for you: in order to preserve the
>original accentuation and to respect the rythmic rules too -> so no
>need for -te:r in place of -ter for Greek)
>
>
>Finally SO MIGUEL => When I said that you didn't understand the rule
>that you quoted (I indicated: 'vocative accent first syllable and
>final short vowel' ; 'accent second syllable and final long vowel'
>and also 'putting a .pdf with the rules there': I have really asked
>you 'to start to apply the rules to see your mistake')
>=> so I thought that you will really take a closer look on this
>=> that wasn't the case

I don't think I could really have been expected to
anticipate something as profoundly pathetic as this.


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
miguelc@...