Re: Torsten's theory reviewed

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh
> > <gknysh@> wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > > > The view that 'the Suebian cult community and the "Elbe
> > > > > Germanic" culture are to a large extent identical'is
> > > > > strictly Hachmann's, and clearly conflicts with Tacitus
> > > > > as well as with Caesar.
> >
> > Georg Kossack:
>
> ****GK: For a split second I thought you were
> addressing me...****

Oh no, I was talking to myself as usual.
I thought you were still pouting in the corner? ;-)

> > Archäologisches zur frühgermanischen Besiedlung
> > zwischen Main und
> > Nordsee, p. 101
> > in Kossack, Hachmann, Kuhn
> > Völker zwischen Germanen und Kelten
> > "
> > Wie sehr sich das Siedlungsbild selbst im ganzen geändert hat,
> > veranschaulicht die Karte der wichtigsten Fundorte mit solchem
> > frühgermanischen Material (vgl. Karte 7). Zwei Verbreitungszonen
> > stehen sich gegenüber, /cut for economy/
>
>
> > How much the image of the settlement/colonization has changed
> > overall is shown by the map of the locations of the most
> > important finds of such early Germanic material ... . Two
> > zones of expansion face each other, one between the rivers
> > Lippe and Ruhr and on the Lower Rhine, northwest of the point of
> > entry of river Lippe, the other one in Northern Hesse, in the
> > Wetterau and in the land before the Taunus mountains. Thus no
> > regionally closed settlement groups are formed yet, such as was
> > the case with the population native to the land ... .
> > However, the river system of this area apparently plays a role in
> > the expansion, likely also the net of old roads, which commodity
> > traffic in the barter economy might have used just as the
> > Roman military in the course of the occupation: the Lippe road,
> > then rivers Weser, Fulda and Lahn, further the Wetterau, and
> > finally the Leine and Werra valley which opens the access to the
> > Thuringian catchment area. The slate mountains east of the Rhine,
> > ie. the ore territory of the Siegerland with its flourishing iron
> > industry in pre-Roman times stays empty of archaeological finds,
> > as if excepted from, but surrounded by the early Germanic
> > settlement/colonization. Thus a fundamental difference
> > results in Western Germany north of the river Main
> > relative to the state of affairs in Bohemia and in the Main
> > valley, although phenenoma match temporally and in their essence.
> > In the latter areas the early Germanic layer had been able to
> > prevail over a late Celtic civilization, culturally as well in the
> > colonization of the land.
> > "
> >
> > So it seem Kossack also thinks there were two
> > colonization thrusts, one northwest, one due west.

>
> ****GK: Despite our differences, your translations are
> always much appreciated. What is Kossack saying? That
> there was one "colonization thrust" north of the Lippe
> and another south of the Ruhr?

No, I think he is saying there was one which went due west in a
corridor south of the river Lippe, north of the river Ruhr, reaching
the Rhine and going down the Rhine, ie. downstream, and another one
being the Wetterau branch we discussed earlier.

So the thrusts are due west, and southwest. I was too hasty again.
Kuhn instead sees the former thrust as going by sea, via the coast of
the NWBlock area, and entering Germania again by the Rhine, that's why
this idea sticks in my head.

> And is he saying that
> the first was Elbe-Germanic while the second (incl.the
> Wetterau) was Przeworsk?

He doesn't use those terms. As far as I can see, he doesn't
differentiate between them culturally. Remember also, he and Hachmann
both wrote before the idea that the Wetterau = Ariovistus.

> (??) And is he finally
> saying that in the Main area the "Celtic" element /of
> whatever ethnicity GK/ was fully absorbed while in the
> two northern "thrusts" it continued to exist side by
> side with the Germanic culture?

This last paragraph perhaps I should have left out for clarity. In it
he talks of the area between the Lippe/Ruhr thrust and the Wetterau
thrust being unaffected at the time, still deserted.

> What is his time frame,

Last half century BCE, as far as I can see.

> the same as Hachmann's?****

Yes.


Tell you what, I think I'll post Kossack's Conclusions. It's pretty
long, so translation will take some time, but they're pretty dramatic,
and might make it clear why I've stuck to the idea of a major east to
west thrust.


Torsten