Re: Torsten's theory reviewed

--- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh
> <gknysh@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Aha. So 'the Suebian cult community and the
> "Elbe Germanic"
> > > culture are to a large extent identical'? How
> does that
> > > rhyme with the 'fact' that the Elbe Germani are
> Jastorf? The
> > > Suebi aren't Jastorf.
> > >
> > >
> > > Torsten
> >
> > GK: Since Hachmann cites Tacitus about the
> Suebi
> > he should be aware that Tacitus' Suebia included
> not
> > only the tribes which lived in the basin of the
> Elbe,
> > but also those further east (except for the
> > Bastarnians). The Suebians (in the view of
> Tacitus)
> > would hence be identifiable with more than one
> > archaeological culture, in space as well as in
> time.
>
> This objections and several related ones in the
> following rest on the
> assumption that the Suebi is a tribe.

****GK: No. It rests on precisely the contrary
assumption. It suggests here that the concept of
"Suebi" is much wider in Tacitus than in Hachmann.****

It isn't, not

> quite at least, it
> is a confederation of tribes, which over time
> becomes a tribe,

****GK: It never became a tribe.****

and at

> Caesar's time we see it in statu nascendi. The two
> things are
> different in purpose; the old tribes, cf the
> European nation states,
> have a conservative purpose: it preserves the way we
> do things, this
> new confederation exists for a purpose: go west,
> young man, take over
> the land of the Celt wimps, and first of all: bring
> down Rome; cf.
> USA, a confederation of people of old nations with
> the new purpose of
> being the champion of rule by the people. That's why
> it's difficult to
> pin down the extent of the Suebi 'tribe': new tribes
> joined the
> confederation all the time.

****GK: The Tacitus concept of "Suebi" cannot in any
obvious sense be interpreted as a "confederation".****

>
> The reason I think that was the purpose of the Suebi
> confederation is
> Ariovistus' attitude during his negotiations with
> Caesar. I think
> Caesar was surprised by and hadn't expected his
> intransigence; the
> reason he reports all of Ariovistus' soliloquy is
> related to the
> purpose of DBG, to defend before the Roman public
> this lengthy and
> costly war. Caesar had probably expected to be able
> to reason with
> Ariovistus, but he seems (to me, at least) to have
> had previous
> experience with the Romans. Frankly, he sounds
> vindictive. Why?
>
>
> > The view that 'the Suebian cult community and the
> "Elbe
> > Germanic" culture are to a large extent identical'
> is strictly
> > Hachmann's, and clearly conflicts with Tacitus as
> well
> > as with Caesar.
>
> ?? 'Elbe Germani' is not a term Caesar or Tacitus
> would use.

****GK: Try not to break down open doors,
Torsten.(:=)))Of course it isn't and that, of course,
isn't the point. The point is that the concept of
"Suebian" differs in Hachmann, Tacitus, and Caesar. It
is narrowest in Caesar, widest in Tacitus, in-between
in Hachmann.****

It would

> seem to me that 'the Suebian cult' was something one
> slowly converted
> to (whatever its contents were) when one's tribe
> acceded to the
> confederation.

****GK: That is defensible. According to Hachmann, the
Germanic tribes east of the Elbe would not have been
"Suebian". According to Tacitus, they were.****

>
> > Hachmann also confuses geographical
> > and archaeological categories. Clearly in the time
> of
> > Caesar most of the Elbe Germani were not of "Elbe
> > Germanic" but of Jastorf culture.
>
> He calls the intruders Suebians. This would be
> impossible if there
> were a sharp distinction between
> Ariovistus/Przeworsk and
> Suebians/Elbe Germani. I don't think there is.

****GK: Neither do I. Of course, not all of
Ariovistus' collaborators were "Suebian". Caesar had a
wider term for them: the Germani.****

I

> think what happened,
> sciento-historically, is this:
> 1) Suebi, Przeworsk Germani and Elbe Germani are
> discovered and given
> labels archaeologically. There seem to be some mixed
> forms in between,
> but, what the heck. Influence is assumed to be from
> north to south,
> since that has been the assumption since Kossinna.
> 2) Someone gets the idea to equate the Wetterau
> Przeworsk with
> Ariovistus; this idea is recent, Hachmann is puzzled
> by the Wetterau
> Przeworsk (I sometimes wonder if someone saw it here
> in cybalist)
> 3) Out of a vague feeling that it has been proven,
> people stick to the
> Jastorf-becomes-Elbe-Germani-and takes-over-Germania
> idea. I suspect
> it hasn't been.

****GK:I'm not sure why Hachmann did what he did. He's
entitled to his surmises. I'm just trying to make
sense of his views in the context of those of
classical writers.****

>
>
> > This did not prevent
> > them (or Przeworsk culture Germani for that
> matter)
> > from being "Suebians". When the Jastorf culture
> > disappeared, it merely meant that those Suebians
> who
> > had previously been associated with it had adopted
> a
> > new culture, that of their southern "Elbe
> Germanic"
> > relatives. It did not mean that they were not
> Suebians
> > before. Nor did it mean that the groups which
> > continued to be of Przeworsk or indeed of Wielbark
> > culture had ceased to be Suebians, Hachmann's
> > arbitrary restriction notwithstanding. "Suebi" is
> a
> > large ethnic identifier. It refers to all Germanic
> > populations east of the Chatti, Chauci, and
> Cimbri. It
> > is a label, as Tacitus states, which applies to
> more
> > than one "nation", indeed to more than one half of
> > "Germania".
>
> Yup. It is a confederation. And at Tacitus' time it
> has grown to that
> size.

****GK: Surely you can't mean this. Whatever Tacitus'
"Suebians" were, they were not, all together at least,
a political community (nor indeed, all together, a
cult community). Anyone who reads through the Germania
sects.39 to 45 can see this immediately. Tacitus does
recognize some religious associations among some of
his "Suebians", but there is nothing "global",not even
the hair style(!cf. sect,.39) "Suebia" is a purely
geographical conception (?)****

>
>
> Torsten
>
>
>

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