Re: Torsten's theory reviewed

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
> Another perspectived below.
> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> > Rolf Hachmann
> > Germanen und Kelten am Rhein in der Zeit um Christi
> > Geburt
> > pp. 54-56
> > translation
> >
> >
> > "
> > WRITTEN EVIDENCE AND ARCHAEOLOGICAL FINDS
> > In the first century CE the settlement area of the Suebian cult
> > community stretches from the lower Elbe in the North, the abodes
> > of the Langobardi, to the area of the Danube tributaries March,
> > Waag and Eipel in the South, the abodes of the Quadi.
> > Archaeologically this area forms a relatively closed unity,
> > discernible by many types of characteristics of the grave custom,
> > recognizable also in the material culture. The old opinion that
> > this so-called "Elbe Germanic" culture of the transitional period
> > and the first century CE is Suebian, may thus be confirmed in its
> > full extent. Already in the last century BCE these groups can be
> > clearly detected in a much smaller area,
>
> ****GK: Does Hachmann say what this "smaller area" is?****

Not that I can see, unless he thinks of the Elbe Germanic area minus
the Bohemian and Moravian conquests ('those areas they acquired in the
meantime').

> > and for those areas they acquired in the meantime is according
> > to literary evidence the immigration of Suebian tribes. The
> > Marcomanni, who Livius still in the time of Drusus knows as
> > eastern neighbors of the Chatti (Orosius VI, 21; Florus II 30),
> > appear in Bohemia (Vellejus Pat. II 108; Tacitus, Germ. 42), the
> > Suebian Quadi spread out in Moravia and the Western Slovakia
> > (Tacitus, Germ. 42; Ann. II 63) ...
> >

...

> ****GK: Would it be possible, to some extent, to
> effect a reconciliation of Tacitus, Caesar, and
> Hachmann?

Well, I still say 'confederation'.

> Acc. to Tacitus (Germania, 39) the "oldest
> and most famous" of the Suebi are the Semnones, and
> the center of the Suebian religious cult is on their
> territory. If this territory (somewhere between the
> Elbe and the Oder) could be equated with Hachmann's
> "small area" for the beginning of his "Elbe Germanic"
> culture and cult, we would have a connection.

I've seen somewhere on minor sites on the net that the Elbe Germanic
expansion happened from not one but two centers: besides Lower Elbe
also the Havel-Spree area.

> The connection with Caesar would be Tacitus' statement
> that the "districts they [the Semnones GK] inhabit
> number a hundred, and their multitude makes them
> believe that they are the principal people of the
> Suebi."(ibid.) Compare this to Caesar's statement
> about the "100 cantons" of the Suebi (in two places
> of DBG). In this perspective, the migrating
> Przeworkers might simply be associates of the Suebi,
> and their abandoned lands would constitute the
> wasteland Caesar refers to. The dominance of the
> Semnones might also explain the eventual success and
> spread of the Elbe Germanic culture and ritual, and
> the cultural assimilation of many Yastorfers and
> Przeworkers. Would Ariovistus then have been a
> Semnonic leader?====

The idea that he was a Suebian is from Pliny, not Caesar. I think that
with Ariovistus' defeat, the tradtional authority of the Semnones
would have taken over from Ariovistus' revolutionary one. Kind of
Bonaparte/Louis XVIII thing. Note that the Suebi never tangle again
with Romans until 406 CE. But the spirit lived on.

On the etymology of 'Semnones', see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suebi , note 3
I think it's from *sweb-no- -> sem-no
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/54560
The fact that both 'Semnones' and 'Suebi' are from the same root shows
that the two languages must have been sepated by the effect of a
number of sound laws (Semnonian *swe- -> *se-), cf Sanskr. v. svapati
"sleeps", Lat. somnus n. "sleep".

> There is however one difference
> between Hachmann and Tacitus which can't apparently be
> bridged. Tacitus includes the Goths and Vandals (or
> Lugii etc..)and others among his Suebians. Hachmann
> does not include the later Przeworsk or Wielbark etc..
> in his Elbe Germanic cult/cultural "Suebian"
> community.****

Confederation ;-)


Torsten