From: tgpedersen
Message: 55061
Date: 2008-03-12
>Would be nice, though, since it's connected to my idea of Iranian
> OK. Let's do this step by step.
>
> --- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > First there was the abortive Ariovist/Tungri
> > incursion,
>
> ****GK: Let's put this aside for the moment. I'm not
> at all sure one can identify "Tungri" and
> "Thuringii/Toringi". It's of no real consequence for
> your overall theory.
> As is the fact that there wereDon't agree with me so suddenly. I fell off the chair.
> "Germanic" pushes across the Rhine prior to the
> arrival of Ariovistus in 72 BCE.****
>
> the real one
> > followed just after, within decades. I don't know
> > whether it would be
> > possible to separate them archaeologically in the
> > individual sites.
>
> ****GK: I would tend to agree with this.
> AriovistusThe same thing occurred to me. He must also have had an organization
> arrived in 72 BCE. By the time of Caesar's 58 BCE
> campaign vast population movements were under way
> ("one hundred cantons of Suebi pressing on the
> Rhine"). The defeat and withdrawal of Ariovistus did
> not stop this.
> I would think that archaeologically....
> this movement and the resettlements associated with it
> would be "visible" as a continuum datable to the
> second half of the 1rst c. BCE. Whatever is noted in
> your series of references to previous cybalist
> messages to that effect is acceptable:
> >
> >The Ariovist/Wetterau invasion took place down the river Main valley.
> > Rolf Hachmann
> > Germanen und Kelten am Rhein in der Zeit um Christi
> > Geburt, p. 36
> > in
> > Rolf Hachmann, Georg Kossack, Hans Kuhn
> > Völker zwischen Germanen und Kelten
> > Schriftquellen, Bodenfunde und Namengut zur
> > Geschichte des nördlichen Westdeutschlands um Christi Geburt
> > /cut for economy/
> > Erst wesentlich weiter im Osten, jenseits
> > der Oder und Neiße in Schlesien, Posen und Südpolen,
> > begegnet eine Kulturgruppe, die den Fremderscheinungen in der
> > Wetterau in allen wesentlichen Merkmalen gleicht (Taf. 8, 15-24).
> > Es ist die Oder-Warthe-Gruppe oder Przeworsker Kultur, wie sie
> > im polnischen Schrifttum genannt wird65. Die Spuren dieser Kultur
> > verschwinden in der Wetterau bereits wieder vor dem Ende des
> > letzten vorchristlichen Jahrhunderts.
> > "
> >
> > Notice the Wetterau traces. They are connected with Ariovist's
> > incursion. Traces of that disappear within the 1st cent. BCE. So
> > there must have been two incursions or invasions of
> > Germania.
>
> ****GK: Perhaps even more. But we already know this
> from Caesar (1. pre-Ariovistus incursions of the
> "Cisrhenani", incl. Eburones et sim. 2. Ariovistus'
> Suebi. in 72 BCE 3. "The one hundred cantons" of Suebi
> by 58 BCE.)****
>The drive northwest down the Elbe I think should be equated with the
> ****GK: Where are we now? According to your
> authorities (Hachmann, Peschel), the Suebian invasions
> westward (the spread of the Przeworsk culture) is
> basically verifiable in the archaeology of the period
> ca.50/40 to ca.O.
> Jastorf disappears in the process,I think archaeologically it's called the Elbe-Germanic culture
> but so does Przeworsk. By the beginning of the CE the
> mingling has produced a new culture. Next question:
> what is the name of this new culture,
> and what are its dimensions (as to area)?You'll have to take into account Augustus' subjugation of Germania 12
> Hachmann states (messageWell, that makes sense if the mother of it all is Przeworsk.
> 20831) that it exists from SW Slovakia to Jutland, and
> from the Saale-Elbe to the Vistula. I'm a bit unclear
> as to the Vistula aspect: Przeworsk continues to exist
> there.
> But let's focus on the northern aspect.****I hadn't expected you to cave in so soon ;-) so I haven't prepared a