Re: Torsten's theory reviewed (Was:Re: Post-Postscript on Przeworsk

OK. Let's do this step by step.

--- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>
> First there was the abortive Ariovist/Tungri
> incursion,

****GK: Let's put this aside for the moment. I'm not
at all sure one can identify "Tungri" and
"Thuringii/Toringi". It's of no real consequence for
your overall theory. As is the fact that there were
"Germanic" pushes across the Rhine prior to the
arrival of Ariovistus in 72 BCE.****

the real one

> followed just after, within decades. I don't know
> whether it would be
> possible to separate them archaeologically in the
> individual sites.

****GK: I would tend to agree with this. Ariovistus
arrived in 72 BCE. By the time of Caesar's 58 BCE
campaign vast population movements were under way
("one hundred cantons of Suebi pressing on the
Rhine"). The defeat and withdrawal of Ariovistus did
not stop this. I would think that archaeologically
this movement and the resettlements associated with it
would be "visible" as a continuum datable to the
second half of the 1rst c. BCE. Whatever is noted in
your series of references to previous cybalist
messages to that effect is acceptable:

>

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/20831

>

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/20871

>

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/21323

>

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/21327

>

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/21569

>

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/21582

>

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/21588

>

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/21608

>

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/26684

>

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/31527

>

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/30336

>

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/32699

>

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/48799

> Sorry for the many quotes, they were all so
> interesting!

****GK: No problem.****

>
> Rolf Hachmann
> Germanen und Kelten am Rhein in der Zeit um Christi
> Geburt, p. 36
> in
> Rolf Hachmann, Georg Kossack, Hans Kuhn
> Völker zwischen Germanen und Kelten
> Schriftquellen, Bodenfunde und Namengut zur
> Geschichte des nördlichen
> Westdeutschlands um Christi Geburt
> /cut for economy/

Erst wesentlich weiter

> im Osten, jenseits
> der Oder und Neiße in Schlesien, Posen und Südpolen,
> begegnet eine
> Kulturgruppe, die den Fremderscheinungen in der
> Wetterau in allen
> wesentlichen Merkmalen gleicht (Taf. 8, 15-24). Es
> ist die
> Oder-Warthe-Gruppe oder Przeworsker Kultur, wie sie
> im polnischen
> Schrifttum genannt wird65. Die Spuren dieser Kultur
> verschwinden in
> der Wetterau bereits wieder vor dem Ende des letzten
> vorchristlichen
> Jahrhunderts.
> "
>
> Notice the Wetterau traces. They are connected with
> Ariovist's
> incursion. Traces of that disappear within the 1st
> cent. BCE. So there
> must have been two incursions or invasions of
> Germania.

****GK: Perhaps even more. But we already know this
from Caesar (1. pre-Ariovistus incursions of the
"Cisrhenani", incl. Eburones et sim. 2. Ariovistus'
Suebi. in 72 BCE 3. "The one hundred cantons" of Suebi
by 58 BCE.)****

>
>
> Torsten

****GK: Where are we now? According to your
authorities (Hachmann, Peschel), the Suebian invasions
westward (the spread of the Przeworsk culture) is
basically verifiable in the archaeology of the period
ca.50/40 to ca.O. Jastorf disappears in the process,
but so does Przeworsk. By the beginning of the CE the
mingling has produced a new culture. Next question:
what is the name of this new culture, and what are its
dimensions (as to area)? Hachmann states (message
20831) that it exists from SW Slovakia to Jutland, and
from the Saale-Elbe to the Vistula. I'm a bit unclear
as to the Vistula aspect: Przeworsk continues to exist
there. But let's focus on the northern aspect.****










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