From: fournet.arnaud
Message: 54901
Date: 2008-03-09
----- Original Message -----
From: Francesco Brighenti
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "fournet.arnaud"
<fournet.arnaud@...> wrote:
> I will add that Chinese qian1 [tçhjän]
> possibly from *gho-y-in
> tends to prove that
> something like *gh_l or *gh_zl- makes sense
> but starting with -sl- the result should be qian4.
> So a proto-form is not clear *ghezlo/*gheslo ?
> although the meaning is clear.
Excuse me? What are you postulating: a "Proto-Sinitic-IE" numeral
1000? What would this proto-form *gho-y-in represent? An early
borrowing from IE?
=================
Having no particular dogma to sell,
I try to look at data in order to understand
what we can get from it.
Chinese Mandarin san1 "three"
and Tibetan gsum have a clear relationship
with Uralic Hungarian ha:rom.
and Basque hiru with loss of -m
These can be cognates.
My reconstruction is ka?-t_?om.
(one + two= three)
Next
Number seven :
Chinese qi1 < *tsat
PIE sept
PAA *tsap-(plus suffixes)
Chinese looks like a loanword from an
early PIE source that still had the affricate *ts
as initial.
=================
In any event, the Chinese proto-form is likely to have been *chi:n-
'1000, to be a thousand'. It may also have some cognates within the
Tibeto-Burman family:
http://tinyurl.com/32rbeu
http://tinyurl.com/3xd3hj
===============
I let you explain
how ChaoZhou koin31 can be derived from *tshi:n !!
Good luck. My beloved comrade...
I prefer *ghoyin.
No doubt, as Torsten likes to say.
As for ST connections, I don't think
1000 is the same thing as a growth of the jungle.
Lushai 10 000 may be a loanword from late chinese
or have no connection at all.
Arnaud
=============
In Shang shell and bone inscriptions the corresponding character is
千, a pictograph of a person with a line drawn at the shin to
indicate extension forward, suggesting that 1000 = number reached by
counting on and on.
============
Traditional explanation is :
Shi Bai Ye. Cong Shi, Ren Sheng.
That is to say (when unzipped) :
Qian1 is ten hundreds.
The character "ten" (Shi) is the lower part of the character.
The upper part "man" (Ren) is a phonetic approximation.
(Older phonetics was Qian = tçhi:n and ren < (n)zin).
MAy I know what your source is for explaining
Chinese Characters ?
I'm afraid it's bad.
Arnaud
==============
Apparently this has no conceptual and semantic
relation whatsoever with PIE *g^Heslo-, especially is the latter is
related, as Piotr has suggested, with *g^Héso:r/*g^Hesr- 'hand'.
Regards,
Francesco
============
The connection between *gheslo- and word "hand"
is fun.
I don't rate this as information or data.
Arnaud
===============