Re: JUPITER+ZEUS

I agree with most of what you have written.

However, I would caution against casting your net to widely.

Not all malefactors can be grouped together.

Aurva undoubtedly represents the maleficent aspect of fire; but this is not
normally the province of the weather god, beneficent or maleficent.

Even snakes must be separated into constrictors (weather-god) and poisonous
snakes (sun-god).

As for Surtr, he probably also is a representative of the fire-god rather
than the weather-god, also.

The fire-god is probably an aspect of the sun-god.

Yam is watery Venus.

And death, Mut, is oftenest associated with Saturn.

Patrick

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 4:07 PM
Subject: Res: [tied] JUPITER+ZEUS

Like almost all Greek deities, Typhon is stupendously complex. I see in it
traces of:
Anatolic Illuyankash (ophidian traits) and Ullikummish (gigantic traits)
Sumerian Kingu (son-lover of maleficent Great Goddess)
Indian Vrtra (PIE) = Midgardsormr ( in its aspect of god's enemy)
Indian Aurva (submarine fire) = Norse Surtr - a flaming entity who will burn
the world at the end.
Ugaritic Yam and Mut (destroy Baal, later ressurrected)

JS Lopes

----- Mensagem original ----
De: Patrick Ryan <proto-language@...>
Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Enviadas: Sexta-feira, 7 de Março de 2008 18:36:45
Assunto: Re: [tied] JUPITER+ZEUS

Typhon is the Western Vrtra. the maleficent aspect of the
weather-god.

Apep in Egypt.

Midgard Serpent in the North.

Patrick

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joao S. Lopes" <josimo70@... com.br>
To: <cybalist@... s.com>
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 3:30 PM
Subject: [tied] JUPITER+ZEUS

Greece and Rome shares a common development: in both places the Storm-God
was mingled with the Sky-Father. In PIE mythology Sky Father *Dyeus was the
father of main deities, including the raging warrior Storm-God (cf.
Dyaus/Indra, Odin/Thorr). In Greece and Rome Dyeus was mixed with Storm-God,
and maybe absorbing too the Dumezilians Sovereigns, Terrible (Jupiter
Stator) and Law-Giver (Dius Fidius). In Greece the scenario is more complex
to make ultimated assumptions, but the "fathery" role of *Dyeus was
transfered to Ouranos, while Zeus became the Storm-God, probably absorbing
traits of Semitic Ba'al and Anatolic Teshub (and even Sumerian Enlil).
The relation of trio Zeus-Poseidon- Hades seems very similar to Ugaritic
Baal-Yam-Mut, with the most demonic features transfered to Typhon. The
struggle Kronos x Zeus is more like Kumarbish x Teshub; and the rivality
between the smart Prometheus and the ferocious Zeus seems to me an echo of
Enlil x Ea quarrellings in Mesopotamian mythology.

JS Lopes
http://mitoblogos. blogspot. com

----- Mensagem original ----
De: Patrick Ryan <proto-language@ msn.com>
Para: cybalist@... s.com
Enviadas: Sexta-feira, 7 de Março de 2008 15:29:28
Assunto: Re: [tied] Re: Swiftness of Indra

Absolutely untrue.

As Joao and I have told you: they both stem from a common source.

You need to read Harrison.

I did not say Jupiter was a "nature spirit".

He is not a big elf.

He represents sovereignty. Controlling the weather is only one of the ways
he demonstrates his supreme dominion -- but only one.

*p&te:r- is not 'biological father' but family/clan/ tribe leader.

Greek and Roman religion resembled each other long before they came into
regular contact.

Patrick

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick McCallister" <gabaroo6958@ yahoo.com>
To: <cybalist@... p s.com>
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Swiftness of Indra

> I didn't say he was a nature spirit, you just did. But
> you do have a point in saying that he was because a
> storm god IS a nature spirit
> Roman religion was originally quite different from
> Greek religion --at least as different as Germanic,
> Indian, etc. were from Greek
>
>
> --- Patrick Ryan <proto-language@ msn.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rick McCallister" <gabaroo6958@ yahoo.com>
> > To: <cybalist@... p s.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 7:19 PM
> > Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Swiftness of Indra
> >
> >
> > > After contact with Greek religion, Jupiter became
> > a
> > > clone of Zeus. Before contact with Greek religion,
> > > Roman religion was based on nature spirits and
> > > reverence to ancestors
> > > Afterwards, it virtually merged with Greek
> > religion
> > > Read the Wikipedia sites on Roman Mythology,
> > Etruscan
> > > Mythology, et al.
> > > I'm guessing you've never read anything about
> > these
> > >
> > > --- Patrick Ryan <proto-language@ msn.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > You are always full of specious generalizations
> > > > straight out of Wiki.
> > > >
> > > > Well, you can show I am wrong by discussing
> > briefly
> > > > what changed in the
> > > > Roman conception of Jupiter after contact with
> > the
> > > > Greeks.
> > > >
> > > > Patrick
> >
> > ***
> >
> > So, Jupiter was a nature spirit? How little you know
> > of Roman religion!
> >
> > Roman and Greek religions both are further
> > individual developments from the
> > religion of the Indo-European speakers who brought
> > them forth.
> >
> > In that early religion, the supreme god was the
> > weather/sky- god, of whom
> > Zeus is the Greek representative and Jupiter the
> > Roman one.
> >
> > Having had the same origin, it is quite natural that
> > they had many traits in
> > common. If the Romans had never come into actual
> > contact with the Greek,
> > Zeus and Jupiter would have resembled each other.
> >
> > Actually, I have read a great deal about ancient
> > religion; and, at my
> > website, I have a separate section of several essays
> > under the rubric
> > Proto-Religion.
> >
> > Why not illustrate wuth an example or two how
> > Jupiter was transformed by
> > Roman contact with Greece.
> >
> > Was he a nature spirit before? Was Zeus?
> >
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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>







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