--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- Patrick Ryan <proto-language@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > I will not define myself as a "fine linguist" but I
> > can offer an opinion
> > which those who are will ratify, I think.
> >
> > The changes brought about by the Grimm shift are
> > indisputable data.
> >
> > But Germanic can also be identified by the
> > vocabulary items unique to it
> > that were not inherited (we believe) from (P)IE;
> > whether individuals of
> > these are pre- or post-Grimm is an interesting
> > question.
> >
> > More difficult is to note grammatical and
> > syntactical divergences from what
> > we think are PIE patterns, and try to time them.
> >
> > So far as I know, no one has successfully identified
> > one or more languages
> > which might have had these effects on what was to
> > become Germanic.
> >
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> > ***
>
> ****GK: So Grimm, unique vocabulary items, grammatical
> and syntactical divergences, are all "indisputable
> data" and there is no certainty in the timing of any
> of these?****
> >
There has been some disputes over the relative dating of Grimm and
Verner, some have even argued for splitting Grimm in two with Verner
in the middle. Kuhn argues also Verner took place during the expansion
into NWBlock (see my prev. reference).
Unfortunately, since we don't know the donor language(s), we can't
tell in general whether a word from a substrate was borrowed before or
after Grimm. Only when they have been borrowed into neighboring
language groups can we do so. Look at the data for a gloss from
Schrijver's 'language of geminates':
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/46175
see also Arnaud's objections
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/51045
and
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/51046
Obviously, if we consider only Finnish and Germanic, the loan must
have taken place before Grimm (but if we look at the other possible
cognates, the picture is less clear).
One more thing though: Verner and Grimm must have taken place before
Germanic adopted first-syllable stress. There is a large almost
contiguous area in Europe that has or had that type of stress:
Celtic, Germanic, Italic, Hungarian, Czech, Old Polish, Latvian,
Fennic. One might speculate that Germanic passed into that geographic
area when it made that stress-change.
Torsten