From: Rick McCallister
Message: 54732
Date: 2008-03-06
> In the case of Jehovah and Allah their names werecolor:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-height:122%;margin:10px
> "borrowed" through convertion of people, like
> Buddhist deities. Centro-American Santeria, as
> Brazilian Umbanda and Candomblé shows that slavery
> mixed a lot of people.
> Does Indra fit in what situation? Were Indo-Aryans
> enslaved by "Pre-Aryans"; were converted by Central
> Asian missionaries?
>
> ----- Mensagem original ----
> De: Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...>
> Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> Enviadas: Quinta-feira, 6 de Março de 2008 1:45:23
> Assunto: Re: [tied] Re: Swiftness of Indra
>
>
> --- Patrick Ryan <proto-language@ msn.com> wrote:
> >
> > The only objections I would raise would be:
> >
> > 1) it is rather unusual to borrow a name for the
> > supreme god;
>
> Not true: See Jehovah, Yahweh, Allah et al. In
> Meso-America Nahuatl names were borrowed, calqued or
> subjected to popular etymology, etc. In West Africa,
> some names were shared: e.g. Legba was Ewe-Fon but
> passed into Yoruba and then into Santería as Eleguá.
> Some Buddhist deities, avatars and boddhisattvas had
> names that passed from Sanskrit to Chinese to
> Japanese.
> Religion and religious terminology seem very prone
> to
> borrowing
>
> >
> > 2) forges are not usually associated with
> > sky/weather gods.
> >
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Francesco Brighenti" <frabrig@... it>
> > To: <cybalist@... s.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 5:27 PM
> > Subject: [tied] Re: Swiftness of Indra
> >
> >
> >
> > George Knysh:
> >
> > > I was ready to accept the notion that Indra was
> a
> > later borrowing
> > > on the authority of Lubotsky and Witzel, even as
> I
> > was rejecting
> > > some of their broader contentions about rituals.
> >
> > Joao S. Lopes:
> >
> > > But this epenthetical -d- is possible if the
> word
> > is not IE.
> > > Indra < *Inra ?
> >
> >
> > May I jump in here with some additional data and
> > hypotheses?
> >
> > Don't take me too seriously (I'm thinking of this
> > idea for the first
> > time right now), but, if the word Indra is not IE,
> > it could belong
> > to a hypothetical Macro-Caucasian substrate
> language
> > of Central
> > Asia.
> >
> > This conjecture of mine rests upon:
> >
> > 1) Alexander Lubotsky's suggestion that *indra
> does
> > not conform to
> > the expected Indo-Iranian vocalization, and may,
> > therefore, be a non-
> > IE word;
> >
> > 2) Michael Witzel's theory according to which the
> > "Central Asian
> > substrate words" found by Lubotsky in Indo-Iranian
> > would have been
> > borrowed by one or more Macro-Caucasian
> language(s)
> > spoken by the
> > peoples of the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological
> > Complex (BMAC);
> >
> > 3) John Colarusso's speculation that Indra may
> > represent an early
> > North-West Caucasian loan into IE -- cf.
> Circassian
> > /y@.../ 'huge +
> > present participle', Abkhaz /á-yna-r/ 'the huge +
> > present
> > participle', the name of the god of the forge
> Aynar
> > ('the Huge One')
> > > *inra > *indra (with intrusive -d-), in this
> case
> > originally
> > meaning 'the Great One'.
> >
> > Here is the link to the page from a book by
> > Colarusso where this
> > etymology is discussed (N.B. Colarusso theorizes
> > that North-West
> > Caucasian languages may be genetically related to
> > the IE family in a
> > larger "Pontic" family):
> >
> > http://tinyurl. com/357ype
> >
> > ==========
> >
> > Addenda:
> >
> > M. Witzel, "The Rgvedic Religious System and Its
> > Central Asian and
> > Hindukush Antecedents" , in A. Griffiths & J.E.M.
> > Houben (eds.), _The
> > Vedas: Texts, Language and Ritual_, Groningen,
> > Forsten, 2004
> > (preprint pdf):
> >
> > "One may therefore revisit the old etymology of
> > Indra from ind 'to
> > swell'. [M. Mayrhofer's] EWAia... connects indra
> > with the
> > meaning 'strong': índra or *indrá 'strong,
> strength'
> > ~ Gr. oidéo: 'to
> > swell' and perhaps índu 'drop'; if this goes back
> to
> > *(h)i-n-d-ro ~
> > Slav. *je,dr' 'strong, forceful' (Croat. jédar
> > 'strong', O.Russ.
> > jadr' 'quick')..."
> >
> > And, from another (2002) preprint pdf by Witzel
> > ("Early Loan Words
> > in Western Central Asia: Substrates, Migrations
> and
> > Trade"):
> >
> > "[An] interesting river name is that of the Indra
> > River in S.
> > Tajikistan, Indar-a:b, and the Inder lake (Russ.
> > ozero Inder) on the
> > lower Ural river in W. Kazakhstan. In light of the
> > proposed non-IIr
> > etymology of the name of the god Indra... these
> > widespread names may
> > reflect the C. Asian substrate language as well.
> > Much more research
> > is needed, however, to turn these proposals into
> > something closer to
> > certainty."
> >
> > Regards,
> > Francesco
> >
> >
>
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