OE. HERG / HEARG ----> ( herh-eard) GROVE DWELLING

From: The Egyptian Chronicles
Message: 54642
Date: 2008-03-04

Since I posted "HERG / HEARG : BEOWULF'S SACRED GROVE & C. ARABIC "HRG"

http://www.theegyptianchronicles.com/ANEW/HERG.html

I have received the following responses which I am reproducing below, to the
best of my ability. I only edited the unnecessary "emotional" and "outcry"
segments which have no bearing on the argument:


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1 - Arnaud Fournet wrote:


It can be related to *log and Latin lig-nus "wood", So you may add it to the
funny list of r/l words beside hartia "shoulder" herg "tree grove" < H-leg-
and hering "fish" and shark < *s-kol "fish".

There is no reason to make things complicated Hearg is from *ker "stone" and
it has nothing to do with H_r_j


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2 - Brian Scott wrote:

What these seem to have in common is the notion of a heathen place of
worship, especially an altar (specifically of stone?), not the notion of a
grove as such. This is a long way from the Arabic word and its etymology

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3 - Torsten Pedersen wrote:

It might be a loan from a Semitic language (eg. Phoenician) into some NW
European language that became a substrate to (NW) Germanic.

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3 - Rick McCallister wrote:

Talk to Theo Venemann, he might see it as a loan from his Atlantic/Semitidic
AA .....


but I think it's more likely related to the root of Latin carcer which comes
from a word meaning lattice, enclosure, etc.

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Ishinan's response:

Basically the majority have been in favor with the "stone" (altar)
interpretation, based on the fact that in Norse paganism, hörgr (plural
hörgar) was a type of altar, constructed of piled stones. Hence, the
suggestion that Hearg is from *ker "stone . Since IE has three *ker 1, *ker
2, *ker 3, I was therefore unable to discern the responder's preference as
to which root he was alluding to. Unfortunately, the same responder offered
another alternative: *log and Latin lig-nus "wood" to be added to the funny
list of r/l words. However, the vacillation is between two different
reconstructions, which are at best in contradiction to each other. In my
opinion both suggestions seem to cancel out each other.


Another suggestion was the Latin "carcer," meaning lattice, enclosure.
However my understanding of the Latin word in the Latin dictionary
definitely pertains to a "jail" and has nothing to do with a lattice and
less with an enclosure.

http://www.theegyptianchronicles.com/ANEW/CARCER.html

Lastly, a suggestion that it might be a loan word from a Semitic language
(eg. Phoenician). This was described as an Atlantic/Semitidic proposition
out of Theo Venemann's theories (1), which apparently to some in the
linguistic community, are too controversial to be taken seriously. I am not
trying to put words into other's mouths, so please correct me if I am
mistaken in these suggestions.


In summary, there were two objections raised to my investigation:

1) Hearg/herg did not refer to a "grove" but rather to an altar/stone and
therefore not eligible to any meningfulcomparison.

2) OE. Hearg/herg was not phonetically compatible with Arabic "Hrg"
(grove, thicket) unless it was a loan word which seems, to the skeptical
mind, improbable.

For those who objected to my attribution of the meaning of grove to
Hearg/herg, I would like to inform you that this was based on behind the
scenes discussions among reputable Anglo Saxon lexicographers. I am taking
the liberty to post their exchange in its entirety below. I hope that this
will put the matter to rest.


"Thorpe and Ettmüller regarded "Herheard" as the lord's name, but later
scholars have found this implausible. Grein's emendation of MS her heard to
her eard simplifies the syntax, but deprives the verse of suitable
alliteration; it is unlikely that the adverb would take the stress in
preference to the noun. Grein later suggested herh-eard (1865, 422),
meaning "grove-dwelling," which in the "Nachträgliche Verbesserungen" to his
edition he relates to wuda bearwe (line 27) and to OHG haruc, "lucus," and
glosses in his Sprachschatz as "habitaculum in nemoribus" (similary
Grein-Köhler). Grein's suggestion is adopted by Krapp-Dobbie. But the OE
he(a)rg/hearh, "heathen temple," "idol," has a definite pejorative sense and
is not recorded in precisely this spelling (see Concordance H002:19
(haerg-); H010:78 (haerg-); H012:271-73 (hearg-), 273 (hearh-); H017:308-12
and 321-22 (herg-); H018:11 and 23-24 (herg-), 64 and 70-80 passim
(herig-).Toller Supp. gives the emended form hearh-eard in Grein's sense
with a query, and also cites this line under heard as an alternative
possibility. Moritz Trautmann's suggestion that the word herheard means
"sanctuary" in the sense of "refuge" (1894, 222-25) is not substantiated
elsewhere in OE. Later scholars have found a specifically pagan significance
in the word. Thus A .N. Doane (1966, 86-88). Also Wentersdorf (1981, 509),
who finds it in Rim 74 also (generally emended to her eardes to provide
alliteration: see note)."


In addition, the original scan of this important exchange has been added to
my website for everybody's scrutiny.

http://www.theegyptianchronicles.com/ANEW/HERG.html


Obviously this exchange changes the outcome as to the first objection stated
above.

In addition, I find it ironic that when Toller's Supp. gave the emended form
"hearh-eard" in agreement with Grein's sense, he used the term in question
in combination with "eard," (2) the native soil which corresponds the C.
Arabic: 'arD (earth) and Hebrew 'rts, and many other Semitic languages (3).
Coincidence? I don't think so.


Now the skeptics are quite free to object to this last connection and come
up with their counter arguments and elaborate phonetic gymnastics.

Meanwhile, as I stated earlier, the crucial question facing linguists and
archeologists is not if there was any contact between the languages compared
here, but rather when and where this contact occurred. Further, I do not
have to be an adherent to Theo Vennemann's theories to come to this logical
conclusion.

Ishinan




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FOOTNOTES:



(1) Theo Vennemann genannt Nierfeld (May 27, 1937 - ) is a German linguist
known best for his work on historical linguistics, especially for his
disputed theories of a Vasconic substratum and an Atlantic superstratum of
European languages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_Vennemann

According to Theo Vennemann, Afroasiatic seafarers settled the European
Atlantic coast and are to be associated with the European Megalithic
Culture. They left a superstratum in the Germanic languages and a substratum
in the development of Insular Celtic. He claims that "Atlantic" (Semitic or
Semitidic) speakers founded coastal colonies beginning in the fifth
millennium BC. Thus "Atlantic" influenced the lexicon and structure of
Germanic and the structure of Insular Celtic. According to Vennemann,
migrating Indo-European speakers encountered non-IE speakers in northern
Europe who had already named rivers, mountains and settlements in a language
he called "Vasconic". He considered that there were toponyms on the Atlantic
coast that were neither Vasconic nor Indo-European. These he considers
derive from languages related to the Mediterranean Hamito-Semitic group.
(excerpts from Wikipedia)

(2) GERMANIC:

eard [] m (-a/-a) 1. native soil, native land, native country, country,
province, region, place of residence, dwelling, home; dwelling place,
estate, cultivated ground; 1a. (1) in connection with persons, (a) the
country where a person lives or is going to live; (b) of a more limited
area, the place where a person lives, habitation, dwelling, home; (2) in
connection with things, natural place, native soil (of plants); 2. earth or
land, in contrast to water, as a firm place on earth or on land. O.E. eorðe
"ground, soil, dry land," also used (along with middangeard) for "the
(material) world" (as opposed to the heavens or the underworld), from P.Gmc.
*ertho (cf. O.N. jörð, M.Du. eerde, O.H.G. erda, Goth. airþa), from PIE base
*er-.

(3) SEMITIC

kkadian: ers.,Ugaritic: ?ars, Phoenician: Phn ?rs, Pun ?rts,Hebrew: ?eres,
Mandaic Aramaic: ard, Arabic: ?arD.- Epigraphic South Arabian: ?arD.
Jibbali: ?erd. Moab ?rs etc.