Re: Meaning of Aryan: now, "white people"?

Well, let us move it back to 4500 B.C. then?

Where were the PIE's and Dravidians located in India?

Patrick

----- Original Message -----
From: "mkelkar2003" <swatimkelkar@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 3:44 PM
Subject: [tied] Re: Meaning of Aryan: now, "white people"?

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@...>
wrote:
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mkelkar2003" <swatimkelkar@...>
> To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 1:01 PM
> Subject: [tied] Re: Meaning of Aryan: now, "white people"?
>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Mr. Kelkar:
> >
> > I am not dead set on rejecting your point of view but I have some
> problems
> > with it:
> >
> > why, if PIE developed in India, do we not see it in Southern India
> until
> > relatively late;
>
> Southern India still speaks languages classified as Dravidian.
>
> >
> > and
> >
> > I also have a hard time visualizing two major language groups,
> Dravidian and
> > PIE, percolating side by side without one swallowing the other.
> >
> >
> > Patrick
>
> Indian has six major language families. The OIT is using only NW India
> and Pak as the IE homeland. Drying up of the Sarasvati river around
> 1900 BCE shifted the focus of the Vedic civilization to the Ganga
Valley.
>
> M. Kelkar
>
> <snip>
>
> Six 'major'? Are you not merely being courteous?
>
> Well, I doubt that I am going to take a position on this since ita
eventual
> answer is not a large factor in what I am doing but I would like to
> understand your think.
>
> Around 3000 B.C., where in India were the Dravidian and PIE-speaking
peoples
> located?
>
>
> Patrick

Thanks! The OIT dates the Rig Veda at 4500 BCE. So by 3000 B.C. the IA
and Dravidian speakers would be present very much they are now.

"A plausible scenario for emigration of PIE dialects out of South Asia

<http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/articles/aid/keaitlin1.html>

1) Initially, there was a single PIE language.

2) The first division of PIE yielded two dialect groups, which will be
called A and B. Originally they co-existed in the same area, and
influenced each other, but geographical separation put an end to this
interaction.

3) In zone A, one dialect split off, probably by geographical
separation (whether it was its own speakers or those of the other
dialects who emigrated from the Urheimat, is not yet at issue), and
went on to develop separately and become Anatolian.

4) The remainder of the A group acquired the distinctive
characteristics of the Tocharo-Italo-Celtic subgroup.

5) While the A remainder differentiated into Italo-Celtic and
Tokharic, the B group differentiated into a "northern" or
Balto-Slavic-Germanic and a "southern" or Greek-Armenian-Aryan group;
note that the kentum/satem divide only affects the B group, and does
not come in the way of other and more important isoglosses
distinguishing the northern group (with kentum Germanic and
predominantly satem Baltic and Slavic) from the southern group (with
kentum Greek and satem Armenian and Aryan)."

The best fit model obtained by Ringe et. al. fits the above secnerio
very well. Germanic oscillates just like it is supposed to assuming a
South Asian homeland. Elst's (2000) Group A would be far right in Fig
12 and Group B far
left.

Fig 12, p. 22 of
<<http://www.cs.rice.edu/~nakhleh/Papers/81.2nakhleh.pdf>

Languages from four major (not six as I said intially) Austro-Asiatic,
Dravidian, Indo-European, and Tibeto-Burman are spoken in India.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_as_a_Linguistic_Area

http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/april/AustroAsiaticLanguageFamily.htm

M. Kelkar

>