From: Rick McCallister
Message: 52706
Date: 2008-02-11
> In one message, you write of 'itch-scratchy'=== message truncated ===
> beyotchy ---
>
> in this, you seem to be tagging me as a creationist
> (which I am not).
>
> You mention my 'conclusions' when I just ASKED Mr.
> Kelkar if that
> hypothetical sequence of events would ease Indian
> Aryan invasion worries. I
> concluded nothing. For the question though, I am
> accused of "willful and
> aggressive ignorance".
>
> Like so many Americans, you automaticaly discount
> any significance DNA
> evidence may have. Just another unpleasant truth to
> be swept under the rug
> so some can feel safe in their ignorance.
>
>
> Patrick
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rick McCallister" <gabaroo6958@...>
> To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 7:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [tied] Evoluation and History of Human
> Populations in South
> Asia
>
>
> > Yes, and DNA doesn't account for a Turkish
> invasion in
> > Turkey, yet it's historically documented. As I
> > remember only bout 1% of Turks have the epicanthic
> > eyefold of Turkic in their historic homeland,
> while
> > about 10% do in Azerbaijan and up to 50% in parts
> of
> > Central Asia, compared to nearly all in Siberia
> do.
> > I can only imagine how much or little DNA from the
> > Ural Hungarians have --compared to Khanty-Mansi.
> Ot
> > Finns to the Samoyeds.
> > What are the DNA differences between the Santali
> and
> > the Vietnamese?
> > I imagine DNA research would probably say that
> Whites
> > and Blacks were native to the US and that Native
> > Americans moved in from Mexico and Central
> America.
> > You conclusions regarding Indians, then constitute
> > willful and aggressive ignorance along the lines
> of
> > creationism, intelligent design, the flat earth,
> the
> > hollow earth and the hypothesis that the earth
> rest on
> > of the back of turtles all the way down
> >
> > --- Patrick Ryan <proto-language@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Thank you for the interesting material.
> > >
> > > I was just wondering - if we assume an
> ethnically
> > > related population in
> > > Iran, would an invasion or move into India by
> > > Iranians speaking an IE
> > > language coming into contact with virtually the
> same
> > > ethnic Dravidians (and
> > > others) speaking a separately developed language
> > > still be a problem for you?
> > >
> > >
> > > Patrick
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "mkelkar2003" <swatimkelkar@...>
> > > To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 11:41 AM
> > > Subject: [tied] Evoluation and History of Human
> > > Populations in South Asia
> > >
> > >
> > > "Fuller's arguments in this volume also have a
> > > bearing on one of the most
> > > contentious and long-term research problems in
> South
> > > Asia prehistory,
> > > i.e., the
> > > origin and spread of languages, including
> hypotheses
> > > which envision that
> > > Indo-European languages were imported by farming
> or
> > > later pastoral
> > > communities
> > > from the west(e.g., Allchin and Allchin, 1982;
> > > Renfrew, 1987). Though
> > > genes and
> > > languages have been correlated with demographic
> > > expansions of farming
> > > populations and migrations towards South Asia
> > > (Cavalli-Sforza et al.,
> > > 1994),
> > > recent studies of mitochondrial DNA argue
> against a
> > > strong
> > > differentiation of
> > > peoples speaking Indo-Aryan and Dravidian
> languages
> > > (Metspalu et al.,
> > > 2004;
> > > Endicott et. al.; this volume) and no support
> for
> > > the entry of `Aryan'
> > > populations is found in physical anthropological
> > > data (Kennedy, 1995;
> > > Walimbe,
> > > this volume). Genetic studies have however,
> recently
> > > been used to
> > > support the
> > > idea of migrations of Tibeto-Burman and
> > > Austro-Asiatic speaking groups
> > > from East
> > > and Southeast Asia into India (see Endicott, et.
> al.
> > > this volume),
> > > which is consistent with
> > > archaeological hypotheses which infer that the
> > > Austro-Asiatic Munda
> > > languages
> > > were introduced by Neolithic populations from
> the
> > > Northeast (e.g.,
> > > Bellwood,
> > > 2005) (though see Fuller, this volume, for a
> > > contrasting opinion.),
> > > (Petraglia
> > > and Allchin 2007, pp. 15-15)."
> > > Petraglia, M., and Allchin, B. (2007). Human
> > > evolution and culture
> > > change. In:
> > > The evolution and history of human populations
> in
> > > south asia.
> > > Petraglia, M.,
> > > and Allchin, B. (Eds.), Netherlands: Stringer,
> pp.
> > > 1-20.
> > > "Physical anthropological studies do not support
> an
> > > a (sic) movement
> > > of Aryan
> > > speakers into the Indus Valley around 3.5ka
> > > (Hemphill et al., 1991,
> > > 1997).
> > > According to these investigators, gene flow from
> > > Bactria is an event
> > > of much
> > > later date, not having any impact of Indus
> Valley
> > > gene pools until
> > > around 2ka.
> > > Kennedy (1984b) examined 300 skeletons from the
> > > Indus Valley
> > > Civilization and
> > > concluded that the ancient Harrapans are not
> > > markedly different in their
> > > skeletal biology from the present-day
> > > inhabi-tants(sic) of North
> > > western India and
> > > Pakistan. Kennedy (1995) also remarks that if an
> > > Aryan invasion had
> > > taken
> > > place, obvious discontinuities in the skeletal
> > > record should be found.
> > > Hemphill
> > > et. al. (1991) and Kennedy (1995) suggest that
> there
> > > existed two
> > > phases of
> > > biological discontinuity within the Indus Valley
> > > from the Neolithic
> > > times to
> > > around 2ka. The first is said to occur between 8
> and
> > > 4.5 ka which is
> > > reflected
> > > in the strong differences irrespective of the
> > > occupational cont
> > > inuity between the Neolithic and Chalco-lithic
> (sic)
>