Re: Evoluation and History of Human Populations in South Asia

From: Patrick Ryan
Message: 52697
Date: 2008-02-11

In one message, you write of 'itch-scratchy' beyotchy ---

in this, you seem to be tagging me as a creationist (which I am not).

You mention my 'conclusions' when I just ASKED Mr. Kelkar if that
hypothetical sequence of events would ease Indian Aryan invasion worries. I
concluded nothing. For the question though, I am accused of "willful and
aggressive ignorance".

Like so many Americans, you automaticaly discount any significance DNA
evidence may have. Just another unpleasant truth to be swept under the rug
so some can feel safe in their ignorance.


Patrick


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick McCallister" <gabaroo6958@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Evoluation and History of Human Populations in South
Asia


> Yes, and DNA doesn't account for a Turkish invasion in
> Turkey, yet it's historically documented. As I
> remember only bout 1% of Turks have the epicanthic
> eyefold of Turkic in their historic homeland, while
> about 10% do in Azerbaijan and up to 50% in parts of
> Central Asia, compared to nearly all in Siberia do.
> I can only imagine how much or little DNA from the
> Ural Hungarians have --compared to Khanty-Mansi. Ot
> Finns to the Samoyeds.
> What are the DNA differences between the Santali and
> the Vietnamese?
> I imagine DNA research would probably say that Whites
> and Blacks were native to the US and that Native
> Americans moved in from Mexico and Central America.
> You conclusions regarding Indians, then constitute
> willful and aggressive ignorance along the lines of
> creationism, intelligent design, the flat earth, the
> hollow earth and the hypothesis that the earth rest on
> of the back of turtles all the way down
>
> --- Patrick Ryan <proto-language@...> wrote:
>
> > Thank you for the interesting material.
> >
> > I was just wondering - if we assume an ethnically
> > related population in
> > Iran, would an invasion or move into India by
> > Iranians speaking an IE
> > language coming into contact with virtually the same
> > ethnic Dravidians (and
> > others) speaking a separately developed language
> > still be a problem for you?
> >
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "mkelkar2003" <swatimkelkar@...>
> > To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 11:41 AM
> > Subject: [tied] Evoluation and History of Human
> > Populations in South Asia
> >
> >
> > "Fuller's arguments in this volume also have a
> > bearing on one of the most
> > contentious and long-term research problems in South
> > Asia prehistory,
> > i.e., the
> > origin and spread of languages, including hypotheses
> > which envision that
> > Indo-European languages were imported by farming or
> > later pastoral
> > communities
> > from the west(e.g., Allchin and Allchin, 1982;
> > Renfrew, 1987). Though
> > genes and
> > languages have been correlated with demographic
> > expansions of farming
> > populations and migrations towards South Asia
> > (Cavalli-Sforza et al.,
> > 1994),
> > recent studies of mitochondrial DNA argue against a
> > strong
> > differentiation of
> > peoples speaking Indo-Aryan and Dravidian languages
> > (Metspalu et al.,
> > 2004;
> > Endicott et. al.; this volume) and no support for
> > the entry of `Aryan'
> > populations is found in physical anthropological
> > data (Kennedy, 1995;
> > Walimbe,
> > this volume). Genetic studies have however, recently
> > been used to
> > support the
> > idea of migrations of Tibeto-Burman and
> > Austro-Asiatic speaking groups
> > from East
> > and Southeast Asia into India (see Endicott, et. al.
> > this volume),
> > which is consistent with
> > archaeological hypotheses which infer that the
> > Austro-Asiatic Munda
> > languages
> > were introduced by Neolithic populations from the
> > Northeast (e.g.,
> > Bellwood,
> > 2005) (though see Fuller, this volume, for a
> > contrasting opinion.),
> > (Petraglia
> > and Allchin 2007, pp. 15-15)."
> > Petraglia, M., and Allchin, B. (2007). Human
> > evolution and culture
> > change. In:
> > The evolution and history of human populations in
> > south asia.
> > Petraglia, M.,
> > and Allchin, B. (Eds.), Netherlands: Stringer, pp.
> > 1-20.
> > "Physical anthropological studies do not support an
> > a (sic) movement
> > of Aryan
> > speakers into the Indus Valley around 3.5ka
> > (Hemphill et al., 1991,
> > 1997).
> > According to these investigators, gene flow from
> > Bactria is an event
> > of much
> > later date, not having any impact of Indus Valley
> > gene pools until
> > around 2ka.
> > Kennedy (1984b) examined 300 skeletons from the
> > Indus Valley
> > Civilization and
> > concluded that the ancient Harrapans are not
> > markedly different in their
> > skeletal biology from the present-day
> > inhabi-tants(sic) of North
> > western India and
> > Pakistan. Kennedy (1995) also remarks that if an
> > Aryan invasion had
> > taken
> > place, obvious discontinuities in the skeletal
> > record should be found.
> > Hemphill
> > et. al. (1991) and Kennedy (1995) suggest that there
> > existed two
> > phases of
> > biological discontinuity within the Indus Valley
> > from the Neolithic
> > times to
> > around 2ka. The first is said to occur between 8 and
> > 4.5 ka which is
> > reflected
> > in the strong differences irrespective of the
> > occupational cont
> > inuity between the Neolithic and Chalco-lithic (sic)
> > inhabitants of
> > Mehrgarh and
> > post-Harrapan. The second discontinuity exists
> > between the
> > inhabitants of
> > Harrapa, Chalcolithic Mehrgarh and Post-Harrapa
> > Timargarha on the one
> > hand, and
> > the Early Iron Age (better known as the Gandhara
> > Grave culture)
> > inhabitants
> > Sarai Khola, on the other, between 2.8 and 2.2 ka.
> > Kennedy (1995:53)
> > concludes
> > that, "if Vedic Aryans were a biological entity
> > represented by the
> > skeletons
> > from Timargarah then their biological features of
> > cranial and dental
> > anatomy were not distinct to a marked
> > degree from what we encountered in the ancient
> > Harrapans." Comparing the
> > Harrapan and the Gandhara Grave Cultures, Kennedy
> > (1995:54) remarks, "our
> > multivariate approach does not define the biological
> > identity of an
> > ancient
> > Aryan population, but it does indicate that the
> > Indus Valley and Gandhara
> > peoples shared a number of craniometric,
> > odontometric and discrete
> > traits that
> > point to a high degree of biological affini
> > ty (Walimbe 2007, pp. 312-313)."
> > "If the hypothesis of an `Aryan Invasion' cannot be
> > supported using
> > physical
> > anthropological data, then the spread of
> > Indo-European languages in the
> > subcontinent needs to be explained on non-biological
> > grounds. There
> > is no doubt
> > that surplus agricultural economy of Harrapans
> > induced increased trade
> > contacts
> > with others (especially to the West). It seems much
> > more likely that
> > multiple
> > waves of Indo-European migration, in small numbers,
> > are possible
> > causing a
> > mingling of the immigrants and local populations.
> > There may have been
> > significant exchange and
> > assimilation of culture and languages on both sides.
> > The immigrants
> > may have
> > traveled back and forth to their original lands
> > taking language and
> > culture to
> > other Indo-European peoples. Human skeletal remains
> > excavated from
> > sites of
> > Harrapa and Mohenjodaro show a mixed ethnic
> > composition similar to the
> > present
> > (Kennedy, 1984b, 1995), showing support for
> > migration rather than an
> > invasion.
> > In recent years, human population genetics data
> > corroborates some
> > physical
> > anthropological influences, concluding that there is
> > no material
> > evidence for
> > any large scale migrations into India over the
> > period of 4500 to 800
> > BC (Walimbe
> > 2007, p. 313)."
> > Walimbe, S. R. (2007). Population movement in the
> > Indian
> > subcontinent. In: The
> > evolution and history of human populations in south
> > asia. Petraglia,
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>
>