> From the Yahoo group Austronesian
> message 1159, Jean-Paul G. POTET
> "
> "Could _katir_ (hut k`it) be the basis for Malay _getah_? Edward
> Schafer, in his article "Rosewood, Dragon's Blood and Lac" (1957:
> 133) saw a connection between Malay _getah_ and the Mandarin word he
> transcribes as "chieh." The resin Chau Ju-kuah mentions came from
> "the Zang countries," so could not have been the substitute resins."
> Celia EHRLICH, LEBANON
>
>
> [Arabic transcription : ²alif, ba:², ta:², þa:², ji:m, Ha:², xa:²,
> da:l, ða:l, ra:², zi:n / zai, si:n, §i:n, Sa:d, Da:d, Ta:², Ða:²,
> ³ain, Gain, fa:², qa:f, ka:f, la:m, mi:m, nu:n, ha:², wau, ya:²; (t) =
> ta:² marbu:Ta(t); (y) = ya:² maqsu:ra(t).]
>
> First of all _katir_ does not exist in Arabic with the meaning you
> give.
>
> What I found instead in my dictionaries is
>
> 1) Arab. _kaþi:ra:²_ "cedar gum"
> In Malay it would become *_katir_ or *_kasir_.
>
> 2) Arab. _qaTr_ "incense from aloeswood"
> In Malay it would become *_katar_.
>
> 3) Arab. _quTr_ "aloeswood burnt to perfume clothes"
> In Malay it would become *_kutur_.
>
> Pronounced in Egyptian Arabic (2) and (3) become:
>
> 4) Arab. _²aTr_ "incense from aloeswood"
> In Malay it would become *_atar_.
> _Atar_ "perfume does exist in Malay, but it comes from Arab. _³aTar_
> "fragrance, perfume"
>
> 3) Arab. _²uTr_ "aloeswood burnt to perfume clothes"
> In Malay it would become *_utur_.
>
> Mal. _getah_ "sap, resin" > _getah rasamala_ "Linquidambar
> orientalis Mill." (Labrousse 1984) is akin to Tag. _gatá²_ "coconut
> milk", that belongs to a set the other members of which are Tag.
> _gátas_ "milk" and Tag. _katás_ "sap; juice". The Tag. root theme is
> _*ta-_; naturally enough it also occurs in Tag. _dagtá²_ "sap,
> resin".
>
> Comparing what I have found in Arabic with what I have found in
> Malay and Tagalog, I do not think Arab. _kaþi:ra:²_ and Mal. _getah_
> are related. :-)
> ...
>
>
> P.S. 1. In Mal. _getah rasamala_ the second item looks very much
> like Arab. _ra:s al ma:l_ "head of the possessions > best of the
> possessions > top possession", cf. _ra:s al Ha:nu:t_ "head of the
> shop > a mixture of spices commonly sold by Arab food stores".
>
'The Egyptian Chronicles' wrote the following to me in a mail. Since
the contents is purely linguistic, I prefer to answer it here:
"
You wrote:
First of all _katir_ does not exist in Arabic with the meaning you give.
------------------------------------------------
My response:
Forgive me, but who are you quoting? Where do you find the word
_katir_ in my response?
Maybe, you are confusing me with another participant? I hope so. If I
am not the intended person, please let me know.
Just in case, here is what I offered:
QUTRAN (Qaf+ Ta' + ra'+ Alif + nwun) Ta' is emphatic borrowed in Old
French as catran ( French goudron)
Quoted for your edification from the French source: "Centre National
de Ressources Textuelles et Lexicales:
Étymol. et Hist. 1. Ca 1195 catran « produit visqueux obtenu par
distillation » (Ambroise, Guerre sainte, 3865 ds T.-L.); 1309 goutren
(E. de Freville, Mém. sur le comm. mar. de Rouen, t. 2, p. 98 cité par
R. Arveiller ds Fr. mod. t. 25, p. 307, s.v. brai); 1611 gouderon (Du
Bartas, 2e semaine, Jonas, p. 398 ds Hug.); 1647 goudron (P. Parfouru,
Dépenses de P. Botherel, p. 33 : goudron pour recalfeutrer le
basteau); 2. 1745 méd. eau de goudron (D.R. Boullier, Recherches sur
les vertus de l'eau de goudron [...] trad. de l'angl. du Dr G.
Berkeley, Amsterdam ds Cioranescu 18e, no 13471), v. eau goudronnée,
s.v. goudronner; 3. 1801 « goudron de houille » (Crèvecur, Voyage, t.
3, p. 54 : goudron de charbon de terre); 1803 goudron minéral
(Boiste); 4. 1832 goudron minéral « sorte de bitume ou d'asphalte »
(Raymond). Empr. à l'ar. qaṭrān, qiṭrān « goudron ». Cf. lat. médiév.
catarannus (ca 1040, Eugesippe ds Du Cange), catranum (1160-70, Jean
de Wurtzbourg ds Mittellat. W.). La forme avec gou- initial s'explique
difficilement, peut-être par l'infl. de goutte (cf. Sain. Autour
Sources, p. 290); pour les diverses formes prises par le mot, v. FEW
t. 19, pp. 90-91. V. aussi S. Sguaitamatti-Bassi, Les empr. dir. faits
par le fr. à l'ar. jusqu'à la fin du xiiie s., Zurich 1974, pp. 84-90.
BTW, the Classical Arabic qutran basically means the following:
Tar, liquid pitch that exudes from trees like the Juniper, savin, pine
tree etc.
"
My answer:
I didn't write the things you attribute to me. It is from a posting by
Jean-Paul G. Potet in the Yahoo group Austronesian, as should be clear
from the quote marks. The 'you' of the posting is obviously referring
to Celia Ehrlich whom he quotes.
BTW it seems to me the reason Potet rejects a connection between the
Arabic and Austronesian words is that he is considering the standard
case of a loan from Arabic. The question of a loan into Arabic doesn't
come up.
Torsten