From: Rick McCallister
Message: 51968
Date: 2008-01-27
> [HTML deleted. - Brian]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Ishinan wrote : Etymology of Bitumen "the Arabic
> word btm for bitumen appears to be a straightforward
> candidate, pointing to a definite Semitic source for
> the word."
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Arnaud responded :
> LOL ! The root btm is an obvious recent loanword
> from French, that has less than a half century of
> existence in Arabic. It's not even listed in
> LArousse Dictionnaire an-nasil de l'arabe. You
> advised to look in Lisan al Arab in a previous mail,
> So why don't you go get B_t_m in Lisan ! B_t_m is
> described as being j_b_l : a mountain !! Arabic
> native word for bitumen is zift. Your Beat-Ruhlen
> score : 9 / 10.
>
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> Ishinan's comments:
>
> If you think you can debate by rambling nonsense,
> then here is an appropriate challenge thrown at you.
> Below is the following entry of the Lisan Vol. I, pp
> 227 along the English translation .
>
> See the Lisan al-`Arab's entry in Arabic along the
> English translation at the bottom of the page :
>
> http://www.theegyptianchronicles.com/ANEW/DRW.html
>
>
> Just to let you know, I shared (off the list) the
> pertaining JPEG with members who are speakers of
> Arabic for arbitration. I would hope you have the
> common sense to admit how wrong you can be. Another
> response in (regular format) is also sent to the
> list.
>
> BTW the C. Ar. :btm is written with the letter t, an
> emphatic Arabic letter Ta', a fact you seem to be
> confused about and is why you are in error. If you
> had properly read my original article and viewed the
> pertaining JPEG, you would have saved yourself this
> embarrassment.
>
>
> Furthermore, unlike you, I am not LOL. Rather It
> pains me to say: I am really embarrassed for you.
>
> For your own information, the native word in Arabic
> actually has many synonyms in Classical Arabic which
> you seem to be ignorant of.
>
> For example, a synonym to bitumen which was directly
> borrowed into Old French is catran c. 1195. I am
> referring to the French goudron from Arabic qutran!
> ( see below , Empr. à l'ar. qat?ra?n, qit?ra?n «
> goudron ). The Classical Arabic word is half a
> millennium earlier than the Old French or the
> Medieval Latin catarannus (ca 1040) .
>
>
> Quoted for your edification from the French source:
> "Centre National de Ressources Textuelles et
> Lexicales:
>
> Étymol. et Hist. 1. Ca 1195 catran « produit
> visqueux obtenu par distillation » (Ambroise, Guerre
> sainte, 3865 ds T.-L.); 1309 goutren (E. de
> Freville, Mém. sur le comm. mar. de Rouen, t. 2, p.
> 98 cité par R. Arveiller ds Fr. mod. t. 25, p. 307,
> s.v. brai); 1611 gouderon (Du Bartas, 2e semaine,
> Jonas, p. 398 ds Hug.); 1647 goudron (P. Parfouru,
> Dépenses de P. Botherel, p. 33 : goudron pour
> recalfeutrer le basteau); 2. 1745 méd. eau de
> goudron (D.R. Boullier, Recherches sur les vertus de
> l'eau de goudron [...] trad. de l'angl. du Dr G.
> Berkeley, Amsterdam ds Cioranescu 18e, no 13471), v.
> eau goudronnée, s.v. goudronner; 3. 1801 « goudron
> de houille » (Crèvecour, Voyage, t. 3, p. 54 :
> goudron de charbon de terre); 1803 goudron minéral
> (Boiste); 4. 1832 goudron minéral « sorte de bitume
> ou d'asphalte » (Raymond). Empr. à l'ar. qat?ra?n,
> qit?ra?n « goudron ». Cf. lat. médiév. catarannus
> (ca 1040, Eugesippe ds Du Cange), catranum (1160-70,
> Jean de Wurtzbourg ds Mittellat. W.). La forme avec
> gou- initial s'explique difficilement, peut-être par
> l'infl. de goutte (cf. Sain. Autour Sources, p.
> 290); pour les diverses formes prises par le mot, v.
> FEW t. 19, pp. 90-91. V. aussi S.
> Sguaitamatti-Bassi, Les empr. dir. faits par le fr.
> à l'ar. jusqu'à la fin du xiiie s., Zurich 1974, pp.
> 84-90.
>
>
> Unlike you, who doesn't bother to name any sources
> for your assertions, I am always careful in
> providing my investigations with their sources and
> even JPEGs scanned from the dictionary entries for
> the edification of the reader.
>
> Ishinan
>
>