Re: BITUMEN was IS PIE * DERU EXCLUSIVELY INDO-EUROPEAN ?

From: Rick McCallister
Message: 51968
Date: 2008-01-27

I've seen postings that bitumen is from Gaulsih bitu-
"beech" and originally referred to a type of gum that
came from the sap. And that the present form is via
Latin.
I'll let someone with resources sort this one out.
FWIW, the related word in Spanish is betún "shoe
polish"


--- The Egyptian Chronicles
<The_Egyptian_Chronicles@...> wrote:

> [HTML deleted. - Brian]
>
> Ishinan wrote : Etymology of Bitumen "the Arabic
> word btm for bitumen appears to be a straightforward
> candidate, pointing to a definite Semitic source for
> the word."
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Arnaud responded :
> LOL ! The root btm is an obvious recent loanword
> from French, that has less than a half century of
> existence in Arabic. It's not even listed in
> LArousse Dictionnaire an-nasil de l'arabe. You
> advised to look in Lisan al Arab in a previous mail,
> So why don't you go get B_t_m in Lisan ! B_t_m is
> described as being j_b_l : a mountain !! Arabic
> native word for bitumen is zift. Your Beat-Ruhlen
> score : 9 / 10.
>
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Ishinan's comments:
>
> If you think you can debate by rambling nonsense,
> then here is an appropriate challenge thrown at you.
> Below is the following entry of the Lisan Vol. I, pp
> 227 along the English translation .
>
> See the Lisan al-`Arab's entry in Arabic along the
> English translation at the bottom of the page :
>
> http://www.theegyptianchronicles.com/ANEW/DRW.html
>
>
> Just to let you know, I shared (off the list) the
> pertaining JPEG with members who are speakers of
> Arabic for arbitration. I would hope you have the
> common sense to admit how wrong you can be. Another
> response in (regular format) is also sent to the
> list.
>
> BTW the C. Ar. :btm is written with the letter t, an
> emphatic Arabic letter Ta', a fact you seem to be
> confused about and is why you are in error. If you
> had properly read my original article and viewed the
> pertaining JPEG, you would have saved yourself this
> embarrassment.
>
>
> Furthermore, unlike you, I am not LOL. Rather It
> pains me to say: I am really embarrassed for you.
>
> For your own information, the native word in Arabic
> actually has many synonyms in Classical Arabic which
> you seem to be ignorant of.
>
> For example, a synonym to bitumen which was directly
> borrowed into Old French is catran c. 1195. I am
> referring to the French goudron from Arabic qutran!
> ( see below , Empr. à l'ar. qat?ra?n, qit?ra?n «
> goudron ). The Classical Arabic word is half a
> millennium earlier than the Old French or the
> Medieval Latin catarannus (ca 1040) .
>
>
> Quoted for your edification from the French source:
> "Centre National de Ressources Textuelles et
> Lexicales:
>
> Étymol. et Hist. 1. Ca 1195 catran « produit
> visqueux obtenu par distillation » (Ambroise, Guerre
> sainte, 3865 ds T.-L.); 1309 goutren (E. de
> Freville, Mém. sur le comm. mar. de Rouen, t. 2, p.
> 98 cité par R. Arveiller ds Fr. mod. t. 25, p. 307,
> s.v. brai); 1611 gouderon (Du Bartas, 2e semaine,
> Jonas, p. 398 ds Hug.); 1647 goudron (P. Parfouru,
> Dépenses de P. Botherel, p. 33 : goudron pour
> recalfeutrer le basteau); 2. 1745 méd. eau de
> goudron (D.R. Boullier, Recherches sur les vertus de
> l'eau de goudron [...] trad. de l'angl. du Dr G.
> Berkeley, Amsterdam ds Cioranescu 18e, no 13471), v.
> eau goudronnée, s.v. goudronner; 3. 1801 « goudron
> de houille » (Crèvecour, Voyage, t. 3, p. 54 :
> goudron de charbon de terre); 1803 goudron minéral
> (Boiste); 4. 1832 goudron minéral « sorte de bitume
> ou d'asphalte » (Raymond). Empr. à l'ar. qat?ra?n,
> qit?ra?n « goudron ». Cf. lat. médiév. catarannus
> (ca 1040, Eugesippe ds Du Cange), catranum (1160-70,
> Jean de Wurtzbourg ds Mittellat. W.). La forme avec
> gou- initial s'explique difficilement, peut-être par
> l'infl. de goutte (cf. Sain. Autour Sources, p.
> 290); pour les diverses formes prises par le mot, v.
> FEW t. 19, pp. 90-91. V. aussi S.
> Sguaitamatti-Bassi, Les empr. dir. faits par le fr.
> à l'ar. jusqu'à la fin du xiiie s., Zurich 1974, pp.
> 84-90.
>
>
> Unlike you, who doesn't bother to name any sources
> for your assertions, I am always careful in
> providing my investigations with their sources and
> even JPEGs scanned from the dictionary entries for
> the edification of the reader.
>
> Ishinan
>
>



____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping