Re: Egyptian xf- = IE *kap-; was Cluster kp- in Germanic

From: Patrick Ryan
Message: 51087
Date: 2008-01-02

Whatever else we might want to say about xf(.)t, it is an interesting word.
 
I have long suspected a connection with IE *kap-, 'grasp'., and possibly *(s)kep-, 'cover'.
 
It seems to me that the basal semantic idea of xf is 'grasp, cover with the hand'; this is somewhat supported by the existence of xf', 'fist, grasp, capture, booty', which has a 'closed fist' as a determinative.
 
That the idea is inherent in xf (without the ') is supported by xf, 'plunder'; and I believe the word Brian cited, xf, 'see', may possibly be more accurately rendered as 'grasp'.
 
This brings us to xfty, 'enemy', which Brian also mentioned. To regard the 'enemy' as 'one in front' is rather pallid, especially since the determinative is a 'kneeling bound captive'. It makes much more sense to interpret xfty as 'one (about to be) captured' since the Egyptians always liked to put their own little spin on reality.
 
That brings us back to xft, 'front'. It makes me suspect that the better meaning of xft is 'grasp (noun)'. 'Within the grasp of' could signify the immediate presence at the front of something. And I suspect that 'grasp (noun)' is a better translation than 'front' for xft, which I know emend to xf.t (feminine as abstract termination).
 
I therefore reconstruct *KHXO-PHO, '*closed fist', from which we should expect PIE *k(h)ep-, Arabic ghaffa/yaghaffu, 'take what is sufficient for sustenance'; Sumerian kub/p-3 (for *kubu-3; Jaritz 141 also reads gub(u)-3), overpower (Jaritz 141 reads kub/p-3, and means  'overpower'; pictures a bent left leg, at the back of which are the human hamstrings); IE 1. (s)kep- (for *k(h)o:p-; cf. Greek skepáo:, 'cover, enclose, protect'.
 
I surmise IE *ka(:)p-, 'grasp', is derived from an alternate form that had the shape of *KHXO-"HHA-PHO, leading to *kØHap-.
 
I do not know how the actuaries on the list will rate this hypothesis; I, myself, rate it at no more than 65%.
 
 
Patrick
 
***
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: [tied] Cluster kp- in Germanic

The Beinlich list search referenced below does produce xft, 'face'
 
BUT NOT xf, 'pot'!
 
Therefore, "There is no xf, '...pot'", is perfectly correct.
 
The Beinlich list search below does _not_ produce xf, 'face'!
 
Therefore, "There is no xf, 'face...'" is perfectly correct.
 
A little due diligence on xft, 'face', shows it is a word of _rare_ occurrence listed in Wörterbuch with a question mark (?), indicating the authors had doubts as to the exact meaning of the word. This word, whatever its exact meaning may be for the Late Period, is not attested before Late Egyptian (!), which hardly allows it to be considered in very early and highly speculative comparisons.
 
The normal Old, Middle, and Late Egyptian word for 'face' is Hr. An entry that does occur is xft-Hr, 'in front of, in the presence of'; probably, literally 'at the front and face of ...'. If xft meant 'face', this expression would be ridiculously redundant; and it is certain that the sign for Hr is _not_ merely a determinative of xft because it has the short horizontal stroke marking an ideograph - something never occurring with determinatives.
 
I do not doubt that 'face' and 'front' are, at least, similar semantically but a careful writer should beable to distinguish them. The Erman-Grapow guess at 'face' for xft for Late Egyptian should probably be regarded as simply another usage of '(what is in) front'.
 
To sum up, my message was entirely justified and accurate.
 
And I discount, as did Erman-Grapow, the source for Beinlich's xf(.)t='face' , xf(.)t in the meaning 'face' when simply 'front' will adequately suffice in the circumstances. 
 
Patrick
 
----- Original Message -----
From: afyangh
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 3:45 AM
Subject: Re: [tied] Cluster kp- in Germanic

--- In cybalist@... s.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@ ...>
wrote:
>
> There is _no_ Egyptian xf, 'face, pot'.
>
> Patrick
======
Arnaud
It seems 2008 is not the year when you will stop
making heavy pronouncements that something does not exist
because *you* have been *unable* to find it.

http://www.newton. cam.ac.uk/ cgi/ncs3/ bsearch.pl

xf-t : Gesicht = face
-t is the feminine marker.
Various derivatives like "temples", etc
Variant form : xp-t
Also used as a preposition : xft : "in front of"

Arnaud
========