Re: full (was: swallow vs. nightingale)

From: Patrick Ryan
Message: 50809
Date: 2007-12-09

For PIE, the root *pAl-, where *A is the Ablaut vowel (*e/*o/*ø), does mean 'fill/full'.
 
But it also means 'drive', 'dust/meal', 'fold', 'cover', 'pot', 'buy', 'gray', 'burn', and 'flat' (*pela:).
 
I cannot believe it is _not_ useful to be able to distinguish among them by recovering an earlier form, wherever it is possible.
 
This word, 'fill/full', apparently drives from the idea of the inflation that occurs when a skin bag has either air or liquid/solid put in it.
 
If we allow that Sumerian is related, then Sumerian bul,  bul-4, and bul-5, 'inflate', indicate that the vowel which became PIE *A in this word was  earlier *o/*u. That is why, among other reasons, I reconstruct *PHO-NHA as a preceding form: *po/ul.
 
If we are willing to expand our sights to PIE *(s)p(h)el-, 'split, split off, tear off', we can compare Sumerian pe-el  (for pi+il(i)-5 = *pil), 'dig, excavate'. If this is valid, it tells us that the form preceding *(s)p(h)el- was *PHFE-NHA: *pe/il-. 
 
With this latter, we can compare Arabic falaHa, 'cultivate, till'. With the former, Arabic ?aflaHa, 'prosperous'.
 
There are a number of prefixes like ?a- that can be added to Arabic verbs to produce various nuances of the basic verbal idea but note: these are added to triliterals. ?a to f-l-H.
Your idea that prefixes can be added to biliterals, which hardly exist in Arabic, such as H-, r-, ?a to f-l. which preserves its meaning of 'fill/full' is totally contrary to established theory.
 
And, in the case of these 'derivatives', you have so far been unable to substantiate the meanings that Kazimirski assigned them.
 
I keep asking where you obtained Egyptian "Hipulil". It is a figment of someone's imagination.
 
Patrick Ryan
 
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----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 4:49 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [tied] Anser (was: swallow vs. nightingale)

If we go back to the beginning of the discussion,
and the root *p_l,

PIE Data :
pel-H1
pol-w
pl-no
From that, it is easy to infer : *p_l
as tradition does.

From Arabic
?afil
Hafil
From that, *p_l.
The same

This root is also documented in :
Niger touareg as balal
and Egyptian Hipulil

There is no reason to further reanalyze *p_l
in a smaller segment
be it *p or *l
because in that case
we should expect *l_p to mean "full"
in Arabic, PIE or any other PAA language
And it is undocumented hence false.

The root is *p_l "full, abundant".

A.F

----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Ryan
To: cybalist@... s.com
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 3:13 AM
Subject: [Courrier indésirable] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [tied] Anser (was: swallow vs. nightingale)

Fournet:

If Kazimirski did not see fit to use actual, documented material to substantiate his proposed (imagined?) meanings (and, if he did/could not reference them as appears to be the case), your assertion of their meaning(s) is unconvincing unless you can find and documentarily reference from some other source (Wehr, perhaps) the meaning(s) [full] that you propose for them by generously giving Kazimirski the benefit of the doubt.

Patrick Ryan