---- Original Message ----
From: stlatos
To:
cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: [tied] swallow vs. nighingale
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Grzegorz Jagodzinski"
> <grzegorj2000@...> wrote:
>> 2. "Swallow". An interesing word. Latin hirundo and Greek khelidwo:n
>> are believed not to be cognates by ultra-neogrammarians (God be with
>> them). [...]
>> Just such isolated words do
>> develop irregularly, by their nature. Searching for reasons why we
>> have -r- in Latin
>> vs. -l- in Greek, why -u- in Latin but -i- in Greek, why -nd- in
>> Latin and -dw- in Greek means just wasting of time.
> Not at all; if there are other Latin words with l>r in a specific
> environment they could show a regular rule.
Could a rule be irregular :-) ?? (Eng. "rule" < Latin "regula")
But seriously: could you list words with l > r and without this change, and
formulate the rule first than negate my words?
> The change of *gWdelu+ >>
> hiru:do: 'leech' suggests it is so.
One example, or even two examples, means no example (especially that there
are more differences between Greek bdella and Latin hiru:do:, including the
vowel in the root). Instead, please extract from a Latin dictionary all
words with intervocalic -l-, as well as all words with intervocalic -r-
which have -l- in Greek. Compare both lists, and formulate rules... If you
don't, I will be stating that searching for such rules means waste of time,
and that the difference between Greek and Latin forms is due to IRREGULAR
development, not due to phonetic rules.
Instead of believing in non-existing rules (prove if I am wrong), I'd rather
believe in "exceptional" rules - in out example, that -l- can yield -r-
WITHOUT a rule. If finding rules had been so simple, nobody would not have
denied that Greek and Latin words for swallow or leech are cognates. But
some deny!
See Pokorny who does not see links between Latin and Greek terms for swallow
(
http://ehl.santafe.edu/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ie/pokorny&text_number=+636&root=config),
or Beekes
(
http://www.indo-european.nl/cgi-bin/startq.cgi?flags=endnnnl&root=leiden&basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Cgreek)
who denies cognacy between Latin and Greek terms for leech, and presents his
opinion that bdella is pre-Greek, not IE.
I do not believe Pokorny, Beekes and other Neogrammarians at all - but I
understand that if anybody believe in unexceptional rules, this one MUST
deny the cognacy because no rules can be found. Instead, I prefer believe
that some rules function only partially, and some phonetic changes are not
caused by any rules at all. And my believe is in high consistency with
facts.
Grzegorz J.
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