--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Grzegorz Jagodzinski"
<grzegorj2000@...> wrote:
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: stlatos
> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 8:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [tied] swallow vs. nighingale, PASSer
>
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Grzegorz Jagodzinski"
> >> <<
> >> § 85. Desarrollo regular: ssi, sse entre voc. > j > [s^] > [x]:
> >>
> >> *bassia:re > bajar, russeum > rojo
> > >>
> >>
> >> Btw. single -si- yielded -s- in Spanish, not -j-, like in
ba:sio: >
> beso.
> >>
> >> In other words, -j- in pájaro is regular if we accepted the
> >> intermediate form *passiarum
>
> > This just leaves the Portuguese and Romanian forms irregular.
>
> Personally, I doubt that a language called Vulgar Latin (or:
Popular Latin)
> ever existed; instead, it was rather an L-complex: a bunch of
loosely
> connected dialects with very little phonetic rules common to all
dialects.
> As a concequence, the discussed rule -sse- > *-ssia- [ssja] was
valid only
> for Spanish, not for Portuguese or Romanian. So, the Portuguese
pássaro may
> be fully regular, and the same Romanian pasare (the breve sign over
the
> second a).
>
> The change ss > [ssj] might be irregular:
Grzegorz, ss > [ssj] it is irregular. No doubt here.
All the issue here, is: why -ssi- in place of -ss-?
In other words from where this *passiarum could appear?
AND The remark addressed to your posting:
> > This just leaves the Portuguese and Romanian forms irregular.
was made exactly in relation with this.
Everything else after this, is clear enough. I think for everybody
here.
On my side, I 'proposed' a basque influence thinking that:
1. the basque influence is strong in Spanish-Romance (see Spanish h
< Latin f, etc...)
From Wikipedia;
" The change from Latin 'f-' to Spanish 'h-' (discussed at length
below) is commonly ascribed to the influence of Basque speakers for a
few reasons. The change from f to h was first documented in the areas
around Castile and La Rioja, areas where many Basques were known to
have lived. The change to h took place to a greater degree in the
Gascon language in Gascony in France, an area also inhabited by
Basques. The Basque language lacked the f sound and thus substituted
it with h, the closest thing to f in that language.
"
with the following reserve:
"There are some difficulties with attributing this change to Basque
though. There is no hard evidence that medieval Basque had an h
sound, but there is also no hard evidence that it didn't"
2. Next Regarding ss > ssi : we can find Latin -ss- > Dialectal -
ssi- in today France too, as in Spain (see the common *bassia:re) =>
this is very similar with Dialectal h- from Latin f- in both
regions...
And we have the same massive presence of Basques in some zones of
France too
3. Finally, is very probable that the phonetic quality of -ss-
wasn't present in Basque at that time...
Marius