Re: "As"

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@...>
wrote:

>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Richard Wordingham
> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 9:12 PM
> Subject: [Courrier indésirable] [tied] Re: "As"
>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@>
> wrote:
>
> > Pt 2 :
> > As regards YueZhi :
> > another name is RouZhi < *njaw- instead of *ngjaw.
>
> Now, Tocharian does have initial /ñ/, and in inherited words to boot:
> Tocharian A and B _ñu_ 'nine' and A _ñom_ B _ñem_ 'name'.
>
> ===============
>
> A.F
>
> What would njawtsix mean in Tokharian ?
>
> And how do you explain that ngjawtsix also exists ?

Alien sounds aren't always rendered consistently - cf. Lakota v.
Dakota for the native name of the Sioux or the inconsistent use of
/tS/ and /j/ in Thai loans of English words starting with /dZ/.

> ===========
> R.W.
> FWIW, there's a Proto-Tibetan-Burmese reconstruction *g-nis for 'two',
> and the Chinese reflexes include platal and velar nasals.

FWIW = For what it's worth.

>
> ==============
>
> A.F
>
> I know Chinese reflexes to be palatal ny or plain nasal n.
>
> Which dialects are velar !?
>
> Please substantiate "include velar nasals". (Plural + velar)

Mark Rosenfelder gives Wu (Wenzhou) _ng 32_, Cantonese (Toishan) _ngei
31_, S. Min (Xiàmén) _nng 33_ (cf. E. Min (Fúzhou) lang 242) and Hakka
(Taoyuan) ngi 55 on his famous page http://www.zompist.com/numbers.htm
(ng = velar nasal).

> Comments: For early OC a reconstruction *nit-s is also possible.

Viet. has an interesting opposition: nhị 'two' - nhì 'second' - the
basis for it within Chinese is not clear. For *n- cf. Xiamen Ê'i6, li6,
Chaozhou zi6, Fuzhou ne6, Jianou ni6.

In the Tai-Kadai dialect that have borrowed this word, the forms
usually reflect the palatal nasal, as in Vietnamese. However, Ahom (a
dialect broadly similar to Shan and formerly spoken in Assam) and
Northern Tai (i.e. Zhuang, Bouyei, ...) reflect (apparently not
uniformly) a velar nasal. I'm not sure of the significance - it may
just be that the initial palatal nasal is unstable in Tai dialects -
in many dialects it has lost its nasality. Note further that it is a
secondary word for 'two' in most Tai dialects - thus in Siamese it
chiefly occurs in the word for 'twenty'.

R.W.

> Tocharian
> does have words in kn-, e.g. _kna:_ 'know'.
>
> =============
>
> A.F
>
> Admittedly it makes sense, Do you have a Proto-Tibetan-Burmese

reconstruction starting with k-n ?

> You gave (possible) examples of gn-, what about k-n !?

No. Proto-TB roots do not begin with /gn/ or /kn/ - the /g-/ is a
prefix, and voiceless stops do not occur as prefixes in Proto-TB.

Richard.