Re: Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian

----- Original Message -----

From: Rick McCallister

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 10:35 PM

Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian

Not to piss on your parade BUT

==================

A.F

Do as you feel comfortable.

Glad to hear you have full control of everything, including

some male organs, like prostate, which sometimes are a little bit playful.

=====================

when did Uralic enter Scandinavia?

===================

A.F

Aikio's article and data are extremely interesting.

So is the method proposed. I agree this man is a great linguist.

My point of view :

1. The "substrate" is a western PIE (=keeping a e o apart) variety that also had undergone (probably independent) Satem process.

Cf. """Gaulish""" bris- < Bhreg- "break"

I gave only one instance. But most other words concord.

So a PIE variety was already there when Saami started intruding.

This is ok with my own idea that PIE started spreading in Eastern/Central/Northern Europe as soon as Wuerm Ice Age was over.

2. Aikio agrees that Uralic is from some far-off place in the East of Europe.

Excellent !

3. The variety of PIE substrate to Saami confirms my own analysis that Proto-Germanic is from another place.

All this is extremely valuable conclusions.

==

A to your Q :

Uralic (= in fact Fenno-Saami) entered Scandinavia after a (western) PIE variety.

=================================

when did Satam traits develop in Balto-Slavic?

====================

A.F

You are asking for more scandal.

Ok. You asked for it.

I suppose Satam is Satem not Satan.

Rough answer without much explanation :

Satem processes developed first in Indo-Iranian and spread afterwards in Balto-Slavic. (I suppose this is obvious with everybody)

Satem processes involve (re-) creation of consonants *z or *zh. (obvious)

PIE inherited *z and *dz from its (or her) ancestor. (new to hard-hats)

BUT BUT

these inherited phonemes disappeared BEFORE Satem processes occured.

Otherwise they would have fused with Satem-process new phonemes :

The fact is they did not.

 

Now, if we go back to KArtvelian loanwords.

 Kartvelian Neolithic loanwords show *z > s not zero :

 *zaghli house > Slavic celo "village" and Germanic *sa:l.

*zghva > Germanic sajwa.

 

Conclusion :

Disappearance of *z and *dz necessarily happened before Neolithic

This is one more proof that PIE split earlier that whatever theory believes.

and Satem processes occured after Neolithic Kartvelian loanwords.

Kartvelian loanwords occured during a period when neither Balto-Slavic nor Germanic had any sibilant other that /s/ to match z or dz.

Before, they had *z and dz. Afterwards, at least Balto-Slavic had voiced *z or *zh.

 

============================

 

 

--- "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@ wanadoo.fr>
wrote:

> http://www.geocitie s.com/tjaaehkere /Aikio2004. pdf
>
> I have looked at "Topography" .
>
> Some words are unduly held to be non - Uralic,
> like njarra "cape"
> Cf. Uralic Moksha mordvin : njar "cape"
>
> Many words look like Satem PIE :
> like barshi "mountain" < *bh_rgh
>
> It seems this pre-Saami Substrate is
> some variety of Satem PIE,
> (Most probably close to Baltic).
> One more proof that Germanic has a homeland
> to be found outside Scandinavia.
>
> A.F
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: fournet.arnaud
> To: cybalist@... s.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 8:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Renfrew's theory renamed
> as Vasco-Caucasian
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: tgpedersen
> To: cybalist@... s.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:08 AM
> Subject: [Courrier indésirable] [tied] Re:
> Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian
>
>
>
> > Aikio's 2004 paper "An essay on substrate
> studies and the origin of
> > the Saami" took a lot of searching for, but is
> available at
> >
> http://www.geocitie s.com/tjaaehkere /Aikio2004. pdf
> > (if someone has already posted the link on
> Cybalist, I missed it
> > somehow)
> > He doesn't say 25%, but he does give an
> impressively long list of
> > probable substrate words.
> ============ ====
>
> A.F
>
> Impressive, indeed.
>
> I am not sure all words have to be discarded as
> non Uralic.
>
> For example njarra "cape" related to the word
> "nose"
>
> Some words starting with sk- look PIE.
>
> ============ ========
>
>
> One is uffir "heap of rocks or rocky slope near
> the seashore" which I
> like since it's one of my favorite Wanderwörter,
> if related to Germ.
> Ufer, Du. oever "river bank", cf
> http://www.angelfir e.com/rant/ tgpedersen/ Op.html
>
> http://www.angelfir e.com/rant/ tgpedersen/ Opr.html
> This is borrowed later than Proto-Saami, which
> means the Saami met it
> in their expansion into their present homes, ie.
> into Scandinavia. So
> this wanderword had arrived there already then.
> ============ =====
>
> A.F
>
> What is wrong with Kluge's analysis of Ufer ?
>
> ============ ========= ========
>
>
> Torsten
>
>
>
>
>

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