Re: [tied] Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian

From: fournet.arnaud
Message: 50101
Date: 2007-09-27


 
----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Ryan
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 10:03 AM
Subject: [Courrier indsirable] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [tied] Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian



***
 
Well, I thought my challenge would, at least, be understood - if not answered.
========
A.F
I understand you most probably better that the reverse.
===============
 
First off, I am not interested in your theory of *i/*u alternation.
===========
A.F
Obviously so. Got it.
You are a hard-hat.
==============
 
 It is held by no one but yourself;
==========
A.F
So far,
as much as I know.
But I must have been preceded by some unknown genius to be uncovered.
This happens all the time with good ideas.
=================
 
and on no evidence. *lei-/*leu- are not best interpreted as alternate forms of the same word (what would be the reason for the 'unnecessary' alternation? ) but rather as two different and, at one time, semantically different roots of SIMILAR meanings.
===========
A.F
I have trouble understanding what is a "semantically different root of SIMILAR meaning"
but I suppose you can explain this more explicitly.
Sorry, I am just a frog, genetically modified to resist lactose, and I don't master all the nice subtleties of Shakespeare's mother tongue. But I prefer being a frog to being a handle on a container.
===================
 
I challenged you to list 5 VERBAL roots each of *CiC and *CuC, a snap if PIE *i and *u are phonemic vowels.
===========
A.F
I will try to get you a couple of Greek aorist P3 forms where i and u alternate,
in the structure C_C.
I am confident it is possible.
Just wait a little bit.
==================
 
Again, I will not be holding my breath.
=============
Yes,
don't hold your breath.
You might choke and we would lose a would-be fossile to exhibit in the Museum of Historical Linguistics, as the last human being, believing that PIE had only two vowels.
So I warmly advise you to be careful : think twice before you get out of bed and walk down the stairs in the morning : this is one of the most dangerous periods of the day. You might fall, break your leg or have a heart attack. You are going to be more precious than you might think. Breathe deep and walk slow, please.
 
Now, if we go back to present times :
interesting data :
educate from *DewK
teach from *DeyK
didactic from *DnK
 
As you can see, we have (at least) two options :
 
As you rank second to the handle of a container as regards mental agility, I feel free to speak out my mind without being afraid of changing yours.
So I frogly-gladly proceed to the next step :
 
Option 1 : Tradition (your coma-like kingdom)
These are three independent roots.
As you say : three "semantically different roots of SIMILAR meaning"
Whatever that might mean, I am afraid I will most likely disagree.
 
Option 2 : Mine (XXI century's linguistics)
These are only one single root *D_K
Traditional theory of PIE apophony is wrong.
*i and *u can alternate with *e (=/a/) and *o.
The result of this inadequate PIE apophony is that we usually get at least three roots when only one is necessary :
that is : C_C plus C_yC plus C_wC.
Plus Cw_C sometimes. Or even rarer Cy_C.
All this leads to an inflation in the number of roots, "semantically different with SIMILAR meaning".
 
The theory of PIE apophony has to be restudied entirely.
 
This is my conclusion.
 
Arnaud
 
PS
Get yourself a softer hat.
Times are a-chaindging and Winds are a-blowing in the uddher direkshone.
 
================.
 
 
 
Patrick Ryan
 
 
***
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 12:12 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [tied] Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian



Mr Ryan :
 
your little "challenge" :
 
skeri = skeru to cut
lei = leu dirt, slime
peHi = peHu to hurt, to strike
gheHi = gheHu to gape, yawn
leig = leug to bind, to twist
 
There are plenty of cases where
either vowel i or u
Or consonant y and w alternate
in the same structure.
 
I don't call this a challenge
I thought you would be able to do it by yourself.
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 7:51 PM
Subject: [Courrier indsirable] Re: Re: Re: Re: [tied] Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian



 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: [tied] Renfrew's theory renamed as Vasco-Caucasian



 <snip>
 ============ =======
 
PIE definitely had four vocalic phonemes :
/i/ /o/ /u/ and /a=e/.
You are confusing morphology and phonology.
This avocalic allophone of *w is morphology not phonology.
 
***
 
I never fail to wonder at those who proclaim such nonsense.
 
Well, you can persuade me of your view by doing something simple:
 
1) list 5 PIE verbal roots of the form *CiC-;
 
2) list 5 PIE verbal roots of the form *CuC-.
 
I will not be holding my breath.
 
PR
***
 
============ ========= =====
A.F
I know what people like you think.
I think you are so overweeningly convinced to be right,
it is no use giving you any "spiritual food".
You are that kind of dumb hard-hats of Indo-Europeanism.
Fortunately, there are people on this forum with whom one may disagree and nevertheless hope to achieve some great exchange of (differing) views.
 
Just look at the hundreds of I.E roots where -i- alternate with -u-.
And you will know :
S-lip versus lub-ricate
ETC ETC ETC
 
============ ========= ==
 
***
 
This (lack of) answer reveals you embarrassingly completely. 
 
You were asked to do something simple if your assertions have even a shred of validity:
 
List 5 each VERBAL roots of the forms *CiC and *CuC.
 
If *i and *u were  PIE vocalic phonemes, *CVC would appear as *CiC and *CuC.
 
If you could do it, you would have done it!
 
You ignored the challenge because you cannot meet it.
 
This shows every reader that nothing you write should be taken seriously since you do not take what you write seriously either.
 
 Patrick Ryan
 
***
 
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