Re: RE : [tied] Re: North of the Somme

I was looking in Wikipedia for the details, but it is
a confused mess, if you take into account various
articles. It doesn't mention the Frisians in Denmark,
but I've seen in various places, including I believe
Beowulf, that the Danes ran them out. Wikipedia sees
the Jutes and the Geats as 2 different peoples but
ackowledges that OED sees them as one. BUT if the
Danes were originally from north of the Swedish Göta,
then the Jutes and the Geats could have formed an
ethnic continuity.
By the way, the former title of the Swedish kings in
Latin does translate literally as "King of the Swedes,
Goths and the Vandals" (Gothorum et Vandalorum) but as
you pointed out, in Swedish it's "King of the Swedes,
Geats and Wends". Evidently the Geats were conflated
with the Goths and (perhaps) the Jutes, the Wends with
the Vandals.


--- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister
> <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:
> >
> > This is most definitely true now but I suspect
> that
> > Jutish showed some degree of transition. Remember
> that
> > the Jutes, Angles and Frisians were run out of
> Jutland
> > by the Danes sometime around 400 AD
>
> That's Jordanes' remark that the Danes ran out the
> Heruli you are
> referring to?
>
>
> > When did the pre vs post position dichotomy of
> > articles occur?
>
> I believe it's documented from the 16th century.
> Before that time many
> texts are law texts and they have no definite
> articles, like ON.
>
>
> > What may have caused it? Could it be due to
> substrate?
>
> There are no village names in -lev in the areas with
> preposed
> articles. I identify the Scandinavian -lev/-löv and
> the Thuringian
> -leben names with the Germanic invasion. You should
> check the archives.
>
>
> > Are there other such elements of
> > Scandinavian that are due to substrate?
>
> Officially no. However, the village names in
> -løse/-lösa have first
> elements that cause trouble when interpreted as
> Germanic. Check the
> archives.
>
> > If so, it is from Saami or pre-Uralic?
>
> The names of major islands are un-Germanic. Kuhn
> finds traces of his
> -ur/-ar-language.
>
>
> > BTW, I've read that the only pre-Uralic substrate
> word
> > that made it from Saami into Scandinavian is the
> root
> > of Spanish morsa "walrus". Are there others?
>
> I wouldn't know.
>
>
> Torsten
>
>
>

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