Re: [tied] Belgians and Gauls

Ok, I am a little bit too emotional,

Sometimes I get "out of track".

I maintain that Caesar killed and enslaved Hundreds of thousands of people

this is not a good training to become an competent ethnologist.

As for Kuhn, I don't have the maps (maybe I missed the link)

As far as I can understand Kuhn's text,

he found (about) no Gaulish (or Celtic) place-names northward of Somme River.

This conclusion is wrong. They exist.

I gave you some examples in another mail.

Capitals of main tribes :

Morini : Therouanne : tarwo-odna : bull-water River

Atrebates : Nemeto-cenna/or -acum : Sacred-place Town

Nerviens : Bavay : Bagacum : Beech Town

What's wrong with Gaulish interpretation for these names ?

I am afraid these maps reflect a biaised analysis

that pretends to be fair and then "surprisingly" fits the conclusion,

that was targeted from the beginning.

I disagree with that kind of method.

Some words reflect "hidden" Gaulish

such as Place-name Templeuve from Templo-vium (Temple-Street)

Although it is made with Latin components

it is obvious that it reflects something else than Latin.

A Latin native speaker would never coin such a word.

A place-name such as Jeu-mont (Jupiter Mountain) is not "clean" Latin

The Latin word order is reflected in Templemars : templum Martis

and Famars : fanum MArtis.

Jeu-mont reflects the Gaulish way of coining place-names.

It is very easy to discard valuable information

when you already have something in mind.

This is what I consider Kuhn did.

----- Original Message -----

From: george knysh

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2007 12:17 AM

Subject: Re: [tied] Belgians and Gauls

--- "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@ wanadoo.fr>
wrote:

> As I have already written to Torsten Pedersen,
> I do not consider Caesar to be a reliable
> ethnologist. etc.. /cut for economy/

****GK: Caesar was a "bastard" and Kuhn a "hypocrite"
who produced "disgusting" "ugly work". "Bull-shit"
etc..
Unfortunately, Kuhn's maps (which TP kindly uploaded)
seem pretty convincing. One needs more than emotional
outbursts to deal with these hard facts.****

>
> Caesar is a Roman Middle-class prestige-obsessed
> bastard,
> He conquered and killed as many countries and people
> as possible
> in order to get what he was craving for :
> A seat among the old-styled Roman upper-class.
> In the end, He failed : this wild beast was killed
> because he was becoming too much a danger to
> everybody.
>
> I must reassert that there is nothing to support
> this dichotomy between whatsoever Belgian and P-celt
> GAulish.
> (This dichotomy ranks below Bull.Shit)
>
> Place-names and French dialects
> that have been carefully studied by competent
> lexicologists
> such as Wartenburg and many others
> for 200 years
> have never made necessary
> that the Gaulish lexical heritage should be cut in
> two,
> (or why not more than two).
>
> As far as I can see,
> The lexical and toponymic heritage
> from the Loire River northward to the Rhine River
> requires nothing else than P-Celt Speaking People :
> that is to say obviously Gaulish people.
>
> So far
> the propagandists of this "Belgian" hypothesis
> have utterly failed to bring any real FACT and DATA
> that would make this hypothesis
> anything but "spit in the air".
>
> As for the Low-German
> (Nederlants) pier "worm"
>
> This word requires two comments :
>
> 1. it is from P-celt
> PIE kwer "worm" hence P-celt Gaulish > Nederlants
> pier.
> this makes GAulish the substrate under Nederlants.
>
> If we are to find a pre-GAulish substrate in Dutch,
> this is not the right word.
>
> 2. the PIE "root" *kwerm" must be improved :
> Root 1 : kwer "worm"
> Root 2 : kum "ant" (with -r- infix)
>
> Root 2 has macro-comparative cognates in Touareg
> root "kum"
> Touareg has a reduplicated form : kedede-KUM "ant".
>
> Thanks to GAulish preserved in Nederlants PIER,
> we can sort out these two roots.
>
>
> Please forward my warmest brotherly salutations to
> the Gwelgians.
> They badly need a straw to grab.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: george knysh
> To: cybalist@... s.com
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 3:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [tied] Belgians and Gauls
>
>
>
> --- "fournet.arnaud" <fournet.arnaud@ wanadoo.fr>
> wrote:
>
> > The general opinion about the Celts is that they
> > originate
> > in the area North of the Alps (Present day
> Austria
> > and Bavaria)
> > probably occupying all the area from the Eastern
> > bank of the Rhine to Lituania
> > If these "Belgians" come from the eastern bank
> of
> > the Rhine
> > they just are Celtic.
>
> ****GK: Maybe. All we can say is that the language
> of
> the Belgae proper was sufficiently sui generis for
> Caesar to consider it as distinct and different
> from
> that of the Gauls. Why should he have been lying
> about
> this? He didn't about Ariovistus' linguistic
> proficiencies. ****
> >
> > My point of view about these "Belgians" is that
> they
> > either are
> > a pre-celtic substrate or they just don't exist
> as a
> > "particular" people.
>
> ****GK: I prefer Caesar's point (:=))****
> >
> > On what basis can one speak of "Belgian"
> invaders ?
>
> ****GK: Cf. DBG 2:4: "Cum ab iis quaereret quae
> civitates quantaeque in armis essent et quid
> in bello possent, sic reperiebat: plerosque Belgos
> esse ortos a Germanis
> Rhenumque antiquitus traductos propter loci
> fertilitatem ibi consedisse
> Gallosque qui ea loca incolerent expulisse"
> >
> > The Gauls too are invaders !
> > And their expansion toward west and south was
> not
> > stopped by Roman occupation.
>
> ****GK: Certainly, but this hardly affects
> Caesar's
> point.****
>
>
>
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