Re: [tied] tt/st/ss

--- Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:

> On 2007-05-31 22:20, Sean Whalen wrote:
>
> > Again, there's no ev. anything like this
> happened in
> > PIE. For example, ts>ss in most IE, but not
> Sanskrit.
> > Should I then assume PIE t+s > ts+s and s>0/t_s
> in
> > Skt?

> What happened in Indic is clear: the affricate *{ts}
> (or any other
> dental affricate), when followed by an obstruent,
> lost its fricative
> component, becoming a stop. In most other IE
> languages it lost its stop
> component, becoming a fricative. The whole affricate
> is preserved in
> Hittite. The Indic development is demonstrated by
> the behaviour of the
> sigmatic aorist, as in áruddHa = á + rudH+s+ta, with
> the same kind of
> simplification. The development of *t+s was
> therefore into *{ts}s >
> Indic /ts/ (but /ss/ in most branches).

I was using *ts+s as an argument against PIE *ts
since t>s/_s is sufficient.

Your description for Indic (and Iranian) is
incomplete. The loss of *x() between syllables
creates complications that allow the differing order
of non-PIE rules to be seen. PIE T+T stops >
geminates in Sanskrit; after some X>0 the non-gem.
d(h)+T combos undergo the sweeping areal fric.
changes. I recently said:

--- stlatos <stlatos@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen"
> <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
> >
> > Burrow: The Sanskrit Language, p 90
>
> > and on the other hand some ancient forms
> > testifying to the existence of z instead of d as
> in Iranian : dehí
> > impv. 'give' beside daddhí, cf. Av. dazdi, and
> dhehí 'put', both
> > with e out of earlier az according to the rule
> below. Either
> > this is a case
> > of dialectal divergence, or the type dehí (<
> dazdhí) represents the
> > regular phonetical treatment which has been
> replaced in the majority
> > of cases by new analogical formations.
> > "

> A
> syllabic "laryngeal"
> is lost between syllables regularly in Iranian
> before Ch+t > Cdh
> as in:
>
> dhugYh-x-te:r dhidh-xY-toi
> dhugYhx-te:r dhidhxY-toi
> dhughx-te:r dhidhxY-toi
> dhugh-te:r dhidh-toi
> dhugh-dhe:r dhidh-dhoi
> dhug-dhe:r dhid-dhoi
> dhug-dhe:r dhiz-dhoi
> etc.
>
> but in Indic it is lost between syllables only in a
> few cases
> after Ch+t > Cdh:
>
> dhugYh-x-te:r dhidh-xY-toi dhidh-xY-dhi
> bhudh-tos
> dhugYh-x-te:r dhidh-xY-toi dhidh-xY-dhi
> bhudh-dhos
> (double C forms geminate, no longer 2 dif.)
> bhu<dh>os
> dhugYh-x-te:r dhidhxY-toi dhidhxY-dhi
> bhu<dh>os
> dhugYh-x-te:r dhidh-toi dhidh-dhi
> bhu<dh>os
> dhugYh-x-te:r dhid-toi dhid-dhi
> bhu<dh>os
> dhugYh-x-te:r dhit-toi dhid-dhi
> bhu<dh>os
> dhugYh-x-te:r dhit-toi dhiz-dhi
> bhu<dh>os
> dhugYh-x-te:r dhet-toi dhez-dhi (analogy)
> etc.
>
> This order shows that whether there was originally
> an X
> between C's has no difference in the Iranian
> outcome, but
> does change the Indic outcome (with those words that
> lose
> X undergoing changes more similar to Iranian and
> most PIE
> > modern languages.

More importantly, just as I say t>s/l_l in Latin &
Germanic, t>ts/R_R or R_N in Indic. The fricatization
affecting T() only occurred for T. in Indic.

kàltló+s kl,tl(e)+ 'neck'

tèrkWtló+s tr,kWtl(e)+ 'spindle'

kr,tnó+ 'woven > complete > whole'

xml,d+dxW+iko+ > xml,ddiko+ 'soft+give+ing/er >
pardoning / mercy / forgiveness'

tè+tègYh+t+i ... tè+tègYh+ènt+i
tè+tègYht+i .... tè+tègYhènt+i
tè+tègYht+i .... tè+tegYhènt+i
tètègYht+i ..... tètegYhènt+i
tetègYht+i ..... tètegYhènt+i
tetègYht+i ..... tètgYhènt+i

analogy

tètgYh+t+i ... tètgYh+ènt+i
tèdgYh+t+i ... tètgYh+ènt+i
tèdgYht+i .... tètgYhènt+i

tedgYhti ... xml,ddiko+ ... terkWtl,+
ted.gYht.i . xml,d.diko+ .. terkWt.l,+
tez.gYht.i . xml,z.diko+ .. terkWs.l,+
tez.gYht.i . xml,z.d.iko+ . terkWs.l,+
te:gYht.i .. xml,z.d.iko+ . terkWs.l,+
te:gYht.i .. xml,z.d.iko+ . terkWu+
etc.
ta:s.t.i ... ml,z.d.ika+ .. tarku+
ta:s.t.i ... ml,_d.ika+ ... tarku+
ta:s.t.i ... ml,d.i_ka+ ... tarku+
ta:s.t.i ... ml,d.i:ka+ ... tarku+
ta:s.t.i ... mr,d.i:ka+ ... tarku+

kr,tno+ ..... kaltlo+
kr,tno+ ..... kal.tl.o+
kr,t.no+ .... kal.t.l.o+
kr,t.s.no+ .. kal.t.s.l.o+
kr,t.s.no+ .. kal.t.s.l.o+
kr,t.s.no+ .. kal.t.Hl.o+
kr,t.s.n.o+ . kal.t.Hl.o+
kr,t.s.n.o+ . kan.t.Hl.o+
kr,t.s.n.o+ . kan.t.Ho+
kr,ts.n.o+ .. kan.t.Ho+
kr,tsno+ .... kan.t.Ho+
kr,tsna+ .... kan.t.Ha+

l>l.
T>T. / r._$
T>T. / l._$
T>T. / _K$
T>T. / K$_
d.>z. /
t.>s. / _$stop
t.>s. / g()$_
t.>t.s. / R_$R
t.>t.s. / R_$N
t.>t.H / s._
t.s.>t.H / _l.
T>T. / T._
z.>mora / V_C$
fric+r, > u / C_#
r.>r
t.>t / r_
T.>T / T_
z.>mora




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