Re: [tied] Re: The role of analogy, alliteration and sandhi in coun

At 15:46:55 on Wednesday, 9 May 2007, tgpedersen wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott"
> <BMScott@...> wrote:

>> At 1:38:05 AM on Wednesday, May 9, 2007, tgpedersen
>> wrote:

>>> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott"
>>> <BMScott@> wrote:

>>>> At 2:31:33 PM on Tuesday, May 8, 2007, tgpedersen wrote:

>>>> [...]

>>>>> Similarly English English-speakers tend to
>>>>> diphthongize long vowels even when speaking foreign
>>>>> languages, presumably because the low-status Scottish
>>>>> and Irish varieties of English don't diphthongize long
>>>>> vowels.

>>>> Most English and U.S. speakers tend to diphthongize
>>>> long vowels when speaking foreign languages for a much
>>>> simpler reason: they're doing what comes naturally.

>>> They're doing what comes naturally to a native
>>> English-speaker.

>> To a native speaker of any of the (majority) varieties
>> that diphthongize the long vowels. Exactly. Nothing to do
>> with status.

> I see. So the English don't want to sound like the Irish
> and the Scots because that would be unnatural?

You've produced no evidence that it has anything to do with
not wanting to sound like the Irish and the Scots. They
simply use their own nearest phonemes. It happens in the
other direction, too.

>>>> Many can't hear the difference between, say, [e:] and
>>>> [eI], and many who can hear it can't reproduce it, or
>>>> can't reproduce it reliably without great
>>>> concentration.

>>> And the reason they can't hear or reproduce that
>>> difference it is that the two are dialectal allophones
>>> in English.

>> Exactly. Nothing to do with status.

> Then why do they prefer one over the other?

Because it's the only one they know.

>>> Native speakers of other languages than English have no
>>> problem distinguishing them.

>> Yes. So?

> So what comes naturally to English-speakers does not come
> naturally to native speakers of other languages. [...]

Oh, but it does: what comes naturally is substituting what
they perceive as the nearest familiar phoneme. I can't
believe that you're unaware of so basic a phenomenon.

>>>> Many U.S. speakers aren't even aware of varieties that
>>>> don't diphthongize long vowels, and if they are, they're
>>>> likely to find them attractive.

>>> I see you agree with me.

>> Obviously not, unless you think that 'attractive' means
>> the same thing as 'to be shunned as low-status'.

> Sorry, I misread you. But awareness of Irishness and some
> idea of an 'Irish accent' is not a thing of the past in
> the USA.

In fact in most places there is no everyday awareness of an
Irish accent.

[...]

Brian